Gods, Stories, Spiders, and Secrets – Season 2: The Story & The Engine

Garry: Hey, hey, hey who fans and welcome to the Big Blue Box podcast. My name's Garry.

Adam: My name's Adam.

Garry: And welcome to episode 424. Hey, you lot, welcome back to another week and another episode. Thank you so much for coming back and checking out our review of season two. As we rattle through each week, it feels like we hope you've had a cracking one and that you've managed to do something Doctor.

Adam: Doctor Who.

Garry: Related.

Adam: Did it properly this week. Yeah, yeah, not too bad.

Garry: Not too bad. Last week Adam was in there like swimwear. Absolutely obliterated me.

Adam: That's right. Gone easy on you this week. Gone easy on you.

Garry: Yeah, yeah. So another episode of season two, bud. We'll get onto our review of that in a moment. Of course, those of you that are joining us for the first time, welcome aboard the Big Blue Box. It's great to have you here and we are a very long standing Doctor Who podcast. We've been waffling about Doctor Who for many years now. So if you're new to the show and new to the podcast and thank you so much for checking us out, welcome aboard. If you're a longtime listener, welcome one of the old grizzled ancients, then welcome back. Great to have you here, of course. And make sure you're following or subscribing to the podcast on your fave podcast app of choice so you don't miss a notification when new episodes drop. And we also do a monthly roundtable episode as well where we gather the writing team and we just pick a subject about Doctor Who and we just sit down and chill and just talk about all the things to do with Doctor Who. You can also listen for free over on the website, which is bigblueboxpodcast.co.uk and you can check out the reviews on from the writing team. They've put big finish reviews out. They do convention roundups and all sorts of editorials. It's very cool there. There's also links to the socials. We chat Doctor Who throughout the week quite a lot on the social. So come and join in over there. Give us a like and a follow and chat Doctor Who there. And we have a very cool free Discord server as well. There's a link on our website. Hop in there and chat lots of Doctor Who with some very, very cool Doctor Who fans. We've got a great little community over there. And don't forget to remember to check out my co host channel over on YouTube. It is of course, we all know by now the Geeks Handbag.

Adam: That's it. Let's all say it together. Come on. The Geeks Handbag. Yep. Check out my YouTube channel. I've got a new vid coming out actually of me going shopping, so hopefully you'll all enjoy that for toys. I should probably not. You know, I'm not just popping to. Not just popping out to get some groceries and taking you with me. It's. It's a little shopping video about toys. So. Yeah, that'll be out on my channel imminently.

Garry: Yeah, I'm so glad you followed up with shopping for toys because, yeah, not a great advert for.

Adam: Just pop into Sainsbury's and other supermarkets are available.

Garry: Yes, go and check out his channel. Loads of very cool geekery stuff over there. Tons of Doctor Who content, plus some other Doctor Who just general geek stuff. And the video that Adam's talking about, he gave me a sneak. He gave me a little sneak preview synopsis and some details before we recorded. And it sounds excellent. So make sure you go and sub to his YouTube channel and go and check that all out. So how you been, bud? The last last week since we last spoke, have you. How many times have you watched our review episode?

Adam: Twice. I've watched it twice to really try and get to grips with it. I haven't done much Doctor Who related stuff this week, unless you count having a haircut. But yeah, no, actually I haven't done much Doctor Who, but a friend of mine did send me some photos today. She said, oh, I was in a junk shop as you are, and they had a load of Doctor Who figures. Have you got any of these? And there is like a whole cabinet of eagle moss figures. And there were some pretty cool ones in there. And I'm like, oh my gosh, no, some of them look really good. Like you still there? She was like, no, this is three days ago. I was like, well, if you go back. But yeah, some. I mean, the eagle moss stuff I did did collect some of that back in the day and some of them were good and some were not so good, but there were some good ones. So may get her to grab some of them. So just point out, by the way, this is back in the UK and I'm obviously in the US so it's not like I can just pop over to have a look at this junk shop. But nice of her to tell me.

Garry: Actually, dude, this reminds me, I was meant to say this a few weeks back on the podcast, so thanks for jogging my memory. Talking of shops that sell Doctor Who stuff, you know that over the years we've commented quite frequently about Forbidden Planet and the decline in. Well, I guess not just Forbidden Planet specifically, but because of you, and I go there quite frequently. That's, you know, the sort of common denominator between the two of us. But the Doctor Who stuff has been on decline, hasn't it, in terms of merch?

Adam: Yeah.

Garry: And back in the day, we obviously had the Cabinet of Woe. The grizzled Ancients will know about that one. And. Yeah, so you don't really see much Doctor Who merch when you're out and about these days. But a few weeks ago, I went over to. They do this Star Wars event over in the shopping center in Redditch. It's called Echo Base Live. And it's basically just one huge Star Wars trading event. Like a million stalls, a billion Star Wars products. Vintage, new, the lot. Very, very cool. Anyway, was in there for a couple of hours, picked up a few Star Wars bits, was walking back through the shopping center and there was a shop there. I can't remember what it's called. I think it's called. I think. I think it was called the Movie and Prop Store or the Movie Store or something like that. Yeah, mate, there was the biggest amount of Doctor Who merch I've ever seen.

Adam: Really?

Garry: Yeah. And you know what made me. It made me think that they had just swiped loads of stuff from the Doctor Who Experience after it closed down. And just Eagle moss, Because you mentioned eagle Moss, mate. There was like 500 eagle moss figures.

Adam: Wow.

Garry: Literally hundreds and hundreds of them. And they had. Because when I went to the Doctor Experience, this is like, I don't know, six, seven years ago now. I remember seeing in the official shop at the Experience, you know, the old Doctor Who, the old teapots and the milk jugs and the shot glasses and all that. They had all of that there. They had like 20 of those each.

Adam: They had any of those poisonous mugs of the Doctor Who faces that we learned that contained lead?

Garry: They did.

Adam: Did they have any of those?

Garry: They did, Yep. They had four or five of those. They had about 10 different designs of hoodies, about 30 different Dr. Who T shirt designs. They had everything, mate. Like everything that Forbidden Planet used to do, that the Experience Shop used to do. Eagle, moth, the lot, mate. It was incredible.

Adam: Sounds good. Did you pick anything up?

Garry: No.

Adam: Right.

Garry: I'd already spent my budget for the day at the Star Wars event. So, yeah, I didn't pick it, but I was tempted by a few things. But as you Know, I did pick up a T shirt because I wore that at the capital event that me and the team went to a few weeks back. So, yeah, sorry, I tell a lie, I did pick up a T shirt, but, no, what did it have on was the. You know, the Cybermen, but in the funko pop style. Oh, yeah, it was one of those, yeah.

Adam: Cool. Sounds a good shot, mate. I mean, I don't see much Doctor Who merch over here in Texas. Occasionally I'll spot something, weirdly and quite bizarrely, one of the few bits of merch I have seen over here, and it's in a shop, which is close to me, which is full of, like, retro toys and stuff. I go in there quite a lot. It's called the Movie Store. And there is, in a cabinet, one of those mugs, the poison mugs. And it's the fourth Doctor one, you know, the big one, the fourth Doctor head. So he's in the cabin over here. So they made their way over to the US and probably poisoned a few people on the way. But the only other thing I've seen is, and you'll see it, anyone who watches my latest video, whenever it comes out, you'll see I go into Gamestop and they had some sonic screwdrivers and. Not the 15th Doctor? No, no, a proper sonic. They had the 10th Doctor sonic and the Capaldi one, You know, that weird blue and that blue Capaldi one, they had those, which was unusual to see because they're in different packaging to the uk. So I don't know where they've come from or if they've just been hanging around forever. But, yeah, don't see that much dot too much over here. It's a bit lacking.

Garry: Yeah.

Adam: Which is good for the wallet, to be fair, you know.

Garry: Oh, great for the wallet, mate. Yeah, I know what you mean, yeah. So, yeah, the world of Doctor Who merch. Crazy, crazy times.

Adam: Crazy.

Garry: Yeah. Anyway, enough of all that talking about tap. We'll leave that to Dalek Tat. Wherever he is.

Adam: Where is he?

Garry: Gone forever.

Adam: Is he anywhere? He's not over here, is he? He's not in the US by any chance? I'm not gonna bump into him when I go to, like, Billy Bob's or somewhere, am I? See him in a Stets at the bar.

Garry: Bubba Gumps. Oi, darling. Chat. What you doing here?

Adam: Yeah, imagine that. Imagine going to Potbelly or somewhere or. Or Walmart, and he's just in there doing a weekly shop. What are you doing in here?

Garry: Oh, God, he's too Miserable to be hanging around people, mate. You won't be in a built up area.

Adam: That's true.

Garry: We struggled to get him onto the show and there's just two of us remotely.

Adam: That's right.

Garry: That's hard enough.

Adam: I'd like to say I miss him, but.

Garry: Yeah, he'll make an appearance one day, I'm sure.

Adam: Yeah.

Garry: All righty. Enough of all that, hey? Enough of all this. We've got a review to get to.

Adam: That's true. Yes.

Garry: What we doing this week?

Adam: Yeah. So here we are. What episode is this? Episode five, isn't it? And it's called The Story & The Engine.

Trailer: Lagos, Nigeria. I've been expecting you. Wait. You're all missing. Welcome. We need him now. It is always hungry. We must feed it. They cannot leave. No one can. Are we under attack? What is. Hello? Hello? Story. Who are you? This is my domain. What the hell is this?

Adam: Cor blimey.

Garry: Cor blimey indeed.

Adam: Watch. What a trailer.

Garry: The Story and the Engine first broadcast the other day on the 10th of May. And it was written by Inua Ellums, Directed by Michaela McPherson. It was overseen obviously by RTD version 2, which seems to be his name these days. RTD 2, obviously. Shootigatwa Verada Sethu as Doctor and Belinda, and then about a dozen supporting cast members. And the synopsis for this one is when the Doctor and Belinda land in Lagos for another Vindicator reading, the Doctor goes to a barbershop to meet an old friend. There he discovers a mysterious barber trapping the patrons, feeding an Engine with their stories, as the title suggests. So, mate, really interesting one this week. Very, very different to what we've seen in Doctor Who for a long time, I think, in many respects. So I'd love to. I'm so interested in your thoughts on this one, mate. So, as usual, straight out the trap. What are your thoughts on this one?

Adam: Yeah, a very interesting one this week, mate. And if ever an episode needed a second watching, I think this is it. Because when we. I was watching this on my other half when it finished, we kind of just turned it and looked at each other and were like, what was all that about? This was confusing. This made Ghost Light look like poetry. But no, that's not to say I didn't enjoy it. It just was a very confusing watch. And I think for the first probably good 15 minutes, me and my partner were really quite engrossed in this. I thought I was liking it a lot, you know, I thought it looked visually really nice. I loved the Idea of this barbershop that was kind of not where it was supposed to be. It was on the back of a spider and all this stuff, you know, cool concept. And, like, you said, something we haven't seen before. And I do love it. And I've said this many times before, like when Doctor Who tries stuff, whether it works or not, like the frog in the chair, People hate that poor old frog. But I like that episode because it was weird and different and this one was certainly heading in that direction. But the problem with it is that as it went on, me and my partner were just constantly asking each other questions about what was happening. So I was like, sorry, hang on, where's the spider come from? What's that? Who's a God? What? You know, where are we now? It was just. I don't know how the fugitive Doctor turns up. Hang on. Blink. And I nearly missed that. So what was that about? What I'm gonna say, mate, is I kind of enjoyed the visuals and I really liked a lot of the ideas in this episode. If anything, I just think it was. It had too many ideas. I think it was just trying to cram in a load of stuff and it. It was very hard to follow. I can't imagine any child, for example, being able to make head or tail of this, let alone a fully grown adult. So it was confusing. It was a bit of a mess overall. But there was some stuff I really liked in it, mate. Loved all the visuals of the, you know, the cartoons or whatever coming to life in the window and all that, and this concept of, you know, having to tell stories, which I know we've seen before, like in the Rings of Akaten and all that sort of stuff, but. Yeah, it's. I hate to say it because I know I've said this a few weeks on the trot now, it's a little bit like all the other episodes where I really liked a lot of what I saw, but it just fell apart once again. So I don't want to be repeating myself, but it's exactly how I feel about this episode that it just. I don't know, it just confused me. And I have to be honest, even on the second watch, I was still left quite confused by it. I definitely got a better grip of what the story was trying to tell. I just don't think it did it in a particular particularly good way. And it certainly wasn't helped by the fact that the. I don't know if it was the fact the actors were mumbling or if it was just A bad sound mix, but we both really struggled to understand and hear a lot of the dialogue. And on a second watch, I was really, really trying. And we did put the subtitles on on the second watch to actually try and work out because a lot of the plot points that I'd missed the first time around, like what the spider was, for goodness sake. I mean, I had no clue the first time watching this. It just seemed to be randomly. The. Suddenly the barbershop was. Was on the back of a spider and I was like, what the heck is going on? You know. But just to sum up, mate, it didn't frustrate me in a bad way that I didn't understand it. If anything, it was making me laugh that it was just so bonkers. I was just like, this is crazy. What is this episode? So, yeah, a really odd one, mate. I didn't dislike it. I just found it very confusing. And I feel there was probably a really good concept and story buried in the middle of this. It just struggled to get out. And I think if anything, it just had too many ideas going on to be a comprehensible story. So it ended up being a bit of a mess. Yeah. What do you think of it?

Garry: I see. Yeah. Overall, I. I quite liked it. Overall, I. I kind of get what you're saying. It's. Even though we've got slightly longer episodes with this sort of just shy of 50 minutes, I guess it still didn't feel long enough to explain some of what was going on. And so, yeah, you're absolutely right. I think because of that, it then tries to. It's a bit like the Rise of Skywalker, you know, that third film in the sequel trilogy where there's so much going on, but there's just not enough runtime to tell it, to tell each sort of thread sufficiently. And so you end up just feels like you're speed running through the story and by the time you get to the end, it's like, okay, that was cool. I think. I don't know. Was it cool? I don't know. I'll have to watch it again to sort of catch myself up to see what was going on. So there was a lot that I liked about it and there was also a. A bit that was like. I feel like this season every episode seems to suffer with the same thing where it's like. Like the. Conceptually, it's there. Like on paper, the ingredients, everything, it's there. But yeah, there's just something that's like. Like some. It's like a piece of the jigsaw that you've put in a lovely frame and then it's like you've, you've bought this 5,000 piece jigsaw and you've, you've done it and you framed it and you're up on the wall and you're proud of it and then you think, hold on a minute, I've missed out a couple of pieces. That's really annoying. Like, that's really playing on my mind that, you know, it's that there's a piece missing. And I feel that's what I'm feeling like with each episode. Like last week it was really weird because you and I were like, oh, I wasn't too keen on that. I wasn't too keen on that. But as we were talking through it and I was sort of reminiscing about the story that we'd just watched, I ended up thinking, actually, yeah, this actually wasn't a bad story at all. So the score ended up being okay. Even though we spent the episode saying we weren't happy about this or that wasn't great, you know, that kind of thing. I think that's, that's like the ebb and flow of the thought process on it. It's like for, for a couple of minutes when I'm thinking about this story and as you and I are talking about it, I'm thinking, yeah, that was fantastic. That was a great bit of storytelling and it was really good. But then literally at the click of fingers, it's like, yeah, but then that bit was, you know, what was going on with that and that wasn't great. And it was all crammed in and so, yeah, mate, I think, yeah, in a nutshell, this wasn't a bad episode at all. It was pretty good. There was just a few elements where for the, I mean, the casual viewer. See you later. Yeah, no chance in hell. Not a chance.

Adam: Yeah, I mean, that's the thing. In many ways, it was just a frustrating episode, wasn't it? Because I was, as I said, I was still, even when I was getting confused by it, I was still invested enough to stick with it. Because it was very much a sort of bottle episode, wasn't it? Very much contained in the barbershop. And I know from listening to some other podcasts that a lot of people found that hard going after a time, you know, and I must admit, probably around the 35 minute mark, I was thinking, come on, this needs to go in a different direction now. I think it was around about when the Doctor started to Say he recognized so and so, and then he got in the barber chair and then she got in the barber chair. I was thinking, oh, this is all getting a little bit bogged down now. And nothing's really interesting is happening in the barbershop. But I did like the concept of it being somewhere where they were all trapped and the people that gone missing were all in there and how's the Doctor going to save them? So as I said, you know, it was frustrating in that sense because I was enjoying the concept of this episode and I love it when Doctor tries something different like this. But it just was getting bogged down in all the other stuff, like the gods coming in and he's a God. He's not a God. He used to work for the God. She's a God. She. The Doctor remembers her, but he doesn't remember her. Here's the fugitive Doctor. You know, it just all suddenly started to get a little bit too much for me. I was like, I just need to sort of concentrate on, let's, you know, pull it back a bit, break it down a little bit and just concentrate on the actual story rather than throwing in all this other stuff on top or at least do it later, you know, I think it's just. It almost felt like we were in that barbershop trap with them and everything was being thrown us at once rather than actually letting it play out. And maybe that is a downfall of having it all contained in a 45 minute episode. Maybe it could have worked a lot better as a two parter, I don't know. Because when the Doctor breaks into the room with the big old brain at the end and starts doing all that stuff, I was thinking, this is, you know, this is cool, good stuff. It looked great, that brain and, and all that. So it just. Yeah, I think maybe it's the middle part where I was just getting a bit lost, a bit confused. Belinda was. I thought she was trapped in the TARDIS at first, and then I realized, watching it again, she'd just been left behind. The Doctor just said, oh, you wait there, I'm off to get me haircut. So. So I couldn't understand why the TARDIS kept doing that alarm thing. And then that kind of went nowhere, you know, I mean, there was a lot of stuff that kind of went nowhere. There was a lot of stuff being thrown at us that didn't sort of have a payoff or didn't get explained. And I think that's what. I found it sort of frustrating. Overall.

Garry: I read you, dude, but I Can imagine it's it. Yeah. So for. I just. I'm wondering where the. Because the rationale for making this type of episode, when I mentioned the casual view, would have been sort of lost in the weeds a little bit. I guess at this point, when you're halfway through the season, you're allowed that. I guess if this was episode one or two, then, yeah. Any newcomers to the show would have been like, I have no clue what's going on at all. Just because we had the. On the surface, like you said, it's kind of an isolated story, isn't it? I can't imagine we're gonna see the Barber turn up again, or Abby or Bina, you know, but I don't think those guys are going to turn up again in future Doctor Who. Big finish, present company accepted. Yeah, I don't know. Big Finish will probably do something with it. I don't know. But. But even as, like, regulars, you know, longtime fans like you and I watching it, I thought to myself, you know, this is because you mentioned it's an isolated story, but I think at this point in the series, you could probably get away with that. We're over halfway through, so, you know, newcomers to everything. If you're not clued up on Doctor Who yet, tough, you know, tough noogies. It's. It's your own fault for not. For not going back and watching it all or. Or reading the books and stuff like that. I just. Of course. But I think these isolated stories, they can be cool. And it was a bit of a Belinda Light story as well. Even though she was in it. I kind of. I only remember her from the beginning and the end, really. But the rest of it, it, like, dived into, like, the Doctor's previous memories. We saw a little show reel of the previous incarnations of the Doctor.

Adam: Always nice.

Garry: Yeah, yeah. We had the. Of course, we're going to. In a second, we had Jo Martin back as the fugitive Doctor and, you know, all these things where it really dives into, like, the Doctor's history and. And all that stuff. So even as a regular viewer of Doctor Who, I found it a bit sort of, yeah. Speed running, having to go through all these bits, which I think why is why when you and I review these episodes, we always watch them at least twice, don't we? So we said this loads of times, but we try and watch it once as a fan and then the second time as. As a reviewer or opposite order, whichever way you want to do it. But, mate, I think at some point I will Watch this episode again in the future, but I think another watch is going to be needed just to sort of cement the ideas in your head and totally, you know, see what's going on and whatnot. But.

Adam: I think if I was to watch this in the future, mate, I'd watch it with the mindset of just not trying to. Not trying to worry too much about explanations and just take the story for what it is. Because I think once you start trying to work out exactly what's going on, like, why what is the spider, what's the web, you know, why is the barbershop in, like, this dimension? How did the barber do that in the first. You know, if you just stop trying to sort of actually work out as a story, I think it could be quite enjoyable because, as I said, visually really lovely, actually. Love all the animation stuff and the sets and everything, and it was nicely directed. But, yeah, I did compare it a bit to Ghost Light earlier, which I think is kind of fair. I just mean that in the sense of, you know, Ghost Light suffered from. From poor. Well, not poor editing, but it had to be edited down to fit, you know, the time slot. So it lost a lot of stuff. I think this, in a sense has the same issue, because if you were a casual viewer, if you were just tuning into this, the Doctor talks about these people that are in the barbershop as if he's known him forever. I don't know when he's been going to this barbershop. You know what I mean? So you could be forgiven for thinking we've seen these people before. And so as a casual viewer and someone who watches this all the time, that in itself is a bit confusing because it's. We don't know any of these people, we're just told that the Doctor knows them. So we kind of have to take that on face value that, oh, these are the Doctor's friends, and that's there's no relationship been built up. You know what I mean? If we'd have met them previously, even if it was briefly in some previous episodes, you know, you could have even had the Doctor just popping back to the barbershop in one episode, just as a scene to set this up further down the line, you know, I mean, but to just throw us in at the deep end and be told, this is a place the Doctor likes to go, these are the people he likes to hang around with, blah, blah, blah. It was a little bit like, tell, not show a lot as well, which I think also probably didn't help in Establishing a connection with the characters a bit.

Garry: Yeah, that makes sense, mate. I do like the. You mentioned about the Doctor going back to this barbershop, presumably many times that we've not seen. I did quite like the setup with that, though, at the beginning. So once you get past the rinse and repeat with Belinda, we've had every episode.

Adam: You know, mate, the first thing my partner said and I thought of you, the first thing he said when we were watching this was, God, this is getting boring. Then keep saying that every week I'm like, I know. Because it's literally the same dialogue. Oh, my God. It was not a great start, that.

Garry: Yeah, once you get past that bit with Belinda doing the whole. Yeah, I did quite like the. The way that. I mean, the entire episode itself is obviously set in a. The way it deals with people of. Of color and the African culture and that sort of stuff. I think that's a lovely. Really lovely way of sort of moving Doctor Who over to the sort of adjacent storytelling area, because. And what I mean by that is the way that they've handled race issues so far since shooty has been the Doctor is. It's been quite. It's been reactive to something, hasn't it? So in the previous episodes, like Dot and Bubble and, you know, when the Doctors, he's. He's witnessed racism firsthand and he's then reacted to that and it's like. It's almost like shock value for the, you know, for the viewer. It's like, you know, it's just one of those things where now that the Doctor is a person of color, that comes with a set of unfortunate challenges. And the way that they did this at the beginning was quite nice, where the Doctor kind of said, I can't remember exactly what he said, but now that he's a Doctor of a black man, he doesn't always fit in with, you know, the rest of the world. Presumably he means Earth the way he did before as a white Doctor, which is completely understandable based on those previous, you know, bits I just mentioned. And so when he says that. But here, though, in this location, that's not a concern. It's not a worry. You know, we can just freely be accepted. And. And I think Belinda even says, you know, my nan was like, that had that viewpoint where she took me to India for that very reason and that sort of thing. So I think that was a really nice way to. To bring you into that environment, rather than just the TARDIS landing in Nigeria. They come out the doors and it's like, oh, we're in Nigeria. This is weird. The TARDIS is playing up again. Or that kind of thing that we've had many times before. I think it was nice that they just address that right off the bat. And that's the reason why the Doctor is just beaming, isn't he? When he realizes that. Where they are and that he can go and visit his mate, Omo, in the. In the barbershop. He's just beaming and it's great. And, and all that stuff. So culturally, the whole African culture and, and that sort of stuff, it was really well done and like you said, the, the direction and the design and everything, really, really well done. And, you know, as they're just walking through the markets and, and doing all that, very, very cool.

Adam: But it was nice to give the Doctor and Belinda that moment at the start as well, to actually bond and to start to get to know them a little bit. Because this is the other thing that's very much in the back of my mind at the minute is we've got three episodes left and I don't feel like Belinda has been utilized as a companion very well at all up until this point. I think we've needed a few more moments where they just stop and have a chat. Let's get to know them, you know, let's get to know Belinda at the same time as the Doctor. So that, that. And it was a nice moment, but then, sadly, she was left behind in the TARDIS for a lot of the episode. So again, it did feel like a bit of a wasted episode for Belinda because she didn't really get anything to do. On the plus side, we did get the Doctor telling that nice story about Belinda that's, you know, when she was a nurse and how she's trying to get home but she has to stay late to save someone. That actually worked quite well for me, I thought, oh, yeah, we're actually getting to, you know, getting to warm towards Belinda by seeing this sort of scene, you know, getting to see her life. But again, mate, I guess when they made this series, we. We assumed that, you know, another series would be following it, which you still might be, but I just don't feel like we've got enough time to get to know Belinda as a character that's going to stand out unless something dramatic happens over the next three episodes. Because even in this one, I think she got a bit left behind, to be fair. But it was nice. I liked that moment between her and the Doctor. Just would like to have seen a bit more of that and if he gets that blooming gadget out again, that's that stupid gadget, you know, he gets it every week when he's trying to get home. What? Oh, I want to break it over my knee. Actually, the clip, they've just.

Garry: You're not a fan of the Vindicator?

Adam: No, I think I. I didn't mind it to begin with, but I know you've said this a few times, but it is very much rinse, repeat, TARDIS lands, get that gadget out, unfold it, pretend to look at it. Oh, yeah, blah, blah, blah. Even in the clip they've released today, the preview clip from the Interstellar episode that's coming up, that's the clip they showed. He gets out the tardis, gets the thing out. Let's test it. Oh, we're nearly there. It's. Oh, my gosh. I'll be really glad to see the back of that thing. I hope when he Hope when it finally does what it's going to do, he opens the TARDIS door and boots it as far into space as he possibly can.

Garry: I'm sure it will all come to fruition in the finale. What that actually is, mate.

Adam: Yeah, I'm sure it will.

Garry: Sure. Yep. Moving a bit further into the episode, then, let's talk about a couple of things that were very cool, and then we'll. We'll pick up a couple of bits that we weren't so keen on. So, yeah, I've already mentioned, like, the. The. The. The cultural aspect and. And that stuff is very. I loved all that. And, um, sometimes when modern franchises do that, it's. It. I think it's really, really cool that people of color can sort of identify with something that's predominantly white in its sort of delivery over the years. So I had that a lot with. So anyone who's listening to podcasts for years will know that I'm married to a woman of color and our son. This happened when Spider-Man: Into the Spider Verse came out. You know, the animated film that was not centered so much around Peter Parker, but more around Miles Morales, a person of color. So that was a really cool way of having. When you're in that situation, it's like, okay, this is really, really cool to have a bit of representation and a bit of mainstream media, you know, and this is exactly what's happened with Dr. Who in this episode, where other than shooty, a black actor, you know, being in the role that removed, it was pretty cool to have an entire episode around that. And I think it was. I think I'm getting this right, but the, the writer was a good friend or is a good friend of Shooty's.

Adam: I believe so, yeah, yeah.

Garry: And I think he recommended him to Russell T. Davis and said this could be a really cool, you know, idea if we get him on board and, and do all that stuff. So having, you know, just, it was just really cool to see that. So I love that, love that aspect of it. The other thing I really liked was a couple of performances we'll get onto in a moment. But the first half an hour, the first 30 minutes for me were very, very cool in terms of having a lot of unanswered questions. So although we're saying on one hand, yep, this episode falls foul a little bit because it was confusing in some ways and we didn't know what was going on. When you were in watching it for the first time and you're sort of half an hour in, you were kind of expecting the payoff for some of those things anyway. Some of them didn't quite work out. But up to that point it was really cool to have this mystery around who the barber actually is, you know, and who Abby is and what exactly is going on with the giant. You know, this barbershop that's in sort of trans dimensional on one hand from the inside, but on the outside it's still in Lagos and all that stuff. So that was, I really like sort of the mystery around those things until the, until the doctor presses the barber about who exactly he, you know, who are you? You know, and I think he tells him a bit of a yarn and then the doctor sees through it and starts cracking up and, you know, get to the bottom of it. But up to that point, dude, really love that whole, you know, what's going on. It was, it was intriguing in a good way.

Adam: Yeah, I mean, that's what I meant when I said we were invested in this for a good sort of 20 minutes. I think it had a good atmosphere to it. Even though a lot of questions are being thrown out, it was definitely pulling me in. And I did feel a certain amount of threat, intention, which I know a lot of people didn't, but I did when, you know, like with the barber, when he, you know, chewies in the chair and he switches the clippers on, you're like, I don't know. I, I felt there was a good atmosphere to this story even though I couldn't really understand exactly what was going on. And I did hope that by the end of it I would. But that just wasn't the case, but I. I did sort of enjoy the ride for the most part, if you know what I mean.

Garry: Yeah. Up until that point.

Adam: Just going back to what you're saying about, you know, the episode obviously being, you know, contained episode and the whole cast is people of color and everything. A lot of people have picked up on the line, which confused me as well, where Schuti said it was the first time he'd had, you know, been in a body that was a. A black body, a person of color, which obviously is a bit confusing, especially as we get to see the fugitive doctor later and we know that the girl at the portal was. Was a child of color. So, I mean, I don't know, that line seems odd and I don't think Russell. Yeah, you know, I'm sure Russell looks over the scripts. Right. He wouldn't have let that slip through.

Garry: Yeah. He didn't say he was the first doctor of color. He said he was. He said he was. He was the. He was the first black man.

Adam: Okay. Yeah. I just. I don't know. A few people have picked up on it and I. And I thought it at the time too, that when he said that, I thought, no, no, you're not. You know, but actually, dude, then he doesn't remember the fugitive, does he? I don't know.

Garry: Well, that's just about to say that. That does lead into something that is a bit of a conundrum. We might as well mention it now, which is the fugitive doctor. Right. So. So yeah, I'm just going back to what you said. I'm pretty sure he says being a. A man of color, a black man. I don't think he says black. I could be wrong. But even if he did, I'm having.

Adam: A black body, I think.

Garry: All right. Okay. So, Eve, so that's the conundrum, isn't it? Is that he's not supposed to remember the fugitive doctor. That's the whole point, isn't it? Of that storyline with the 13th doctor. 13th, 14th. Jody's doctor in that the fugitive doctor was pre Hartnell and she was part of. What was it? The division.

Adam: The division, yeah.

Garry: Yeah. And around all that storyline with memories being erased and all that stuff. The doctor's not supposed to. To remember anything about that. It wasn't until that storyline. Yeah. With Jody's doctor that they started to piece that together a little bit and she starts to become aware of the fugitive doctor. So in this one, it's not until he sees Abby or Abena that that triggers his memory a little Bit, I think, and. But up until that point, I think he was just going along the lines of, you know, not really remembering who she was. I mean, the Fugitive Doctor. I mean.

Adam: Yeah, no, that's. That kind of makes sense, I guess, because I've kind of forgotten what happened with all that was all put in the FOB watch, wasn't it, and dropped into the middle of the tardis. So, I don't know, it's all a little. Still a little bit hazy, that whole storyline. But were you surprised to see the Fugitive Doctor turn up? We did. You gasp, oh, my gosh, she's back.

Garry: Yeah. Just because I didn't expect to see her back. Yeah, well, when we went to the Capital Event, Joe Martin was there and we. We attended a panel with her, a Q A. And she doesn't let it slip, did she? She didn't. Not. Not on the nose. But she did have a little smile on her face when one of the audience members asked her, the last time that we saw the Fugitive Doctor on screen, is that the last time we're going to see her?

Adam: Right.

Garry: She kind of had a little grin on her. She didn't say anything, but she had a little smile and everybody just sort of took that as, okay, we'll read between the lines in this scenario, you know, so. But I'd completely forgotten about that watching this episode. So, yeah, when she popped up, I was like, okay, right, so we're back to. We're back to sort of to this thing with the Fugitive Doctor. So how my initial thought was, once the episode had finished, was it was really cool to see Joe Martin because she was great. But is Russell gonna dive down into some of this timeless child stuff a bit more?

Adam: Yes, that's what I'm thinking, mate. Yeah. Because I. Yes, I was pleased to see her. I thought, oh, Fugitive Doctor. Wasn't expecting that. And then. But I was surprised how brief the scene was. It was like. It really was a blink and you'll miss it to the point that I actually was. So I think actually turns me off and spoke over the scenes. Oh, my God, Joe. You know, fugitive dots back and then turned and she'd already gone off the screen. And I was like, oh, hang on, why was she back? What was that? So, you know, I had to go back and rewatch it to find out what she actually said and why she was there, because it was so brief. And I am like you, hoping that there's more to this and perhaps she's gonna turn up again in the final. Because I would Hate to think they brought her back. Got her all dressed up in that outfit, which, I mean, gosh, it looks. I'd be baking under all those clothes. She's wearing so much stuff. You know what I mean? Get her all dressed up to do that five second clip. Come on. You know, that's. I don't think that's fair on her as an actor. You know, she's got such potential to be a good doctor, you know that? To just have a turn every now and again, say one line and vanish. It's. She deserves more, mate, really, is what I'm saying. So I am hoping this plays into the bigger picture because I don't know if that's all we get. To me, it feels such a waste. But it was nice to see her make a little cameo this week. But I definitely hope there's more to it, mate. I really do.

Garry: Yeah, I would say so. Judging by Joe Martin's response at that Q and A, I think. I don't think this is the last time her character gets some screen time. Yeah.

Adam: Do you think. Do you think we'll see her in the final?

Garry: Oh, I'm not sure, mate. Don't know about that. But I don't think it's the last time we've seen her on screen. Yeah.

Adam: Have you checked out any of the Big Finish stuff, just out of interest? I mean, I haven't, but I'm curious to hear what she's like on Big Finish. Just wondered if you'd delved in yet. No, I might do that at some point.

Garry: Yeah. Yeah. But her cameo was really cool. And it also was a good visual way of. Of explaining why the Doctor recognized Abby. So we. We dived immediately into when the Doctor does, remember. So this is after the barber tries to spin a bit of a yarn to the Doctor about who he actually is. And then when the Doctor unravels that, he then, you know, when. When Abby, you know, gives him a bit of a, you know, if looks could kill moment again, he. He sort of clicks in his brain and, you know, that's when we have the thing. Okay. This happened like, way, way, way back. Like, way back. Like, I don't want to open a can of worms here, dude, but this obviously happened, like, way before Hartnell, you know, and those of us that are, you know, very much a staunch.

Adam: You.

Garry: Know, Doctor Who is Doctor Who from the first Doctor and some fans, like. And I mean it when I say this, Hartnell, as in the first Doctor, you know, if you're that type of fan, then you're not going to be too keen on this, but, you know, if you buy into this whole timeless child thing and the Doctor having many, many incarnations before Hartnell, then this happened long, long time ago.

Adam: Yes. Yeah. So, yeah, it is a can of worms. We. We could probably do a whole podcast on that. So perhaps best leave it there. But she. She wasn't the only one to return, mate. There was another returning character which took me by surprise. Probably even more is that we saw baby Poppy from Space Babies. Now, I'm telling you now, if we, if we are getting a sequel to Space Babies, that could be me done. But yeah, we saw Poppy back and it is actually in the credits listed as Poppy the from Space Baby. So it is supposed to be the same character. Now, what's that about? And do you know what, I'm just gonna say quickly, I kind of like the mystery. I hope it's gonna have some sort of payoff. But what was Baby Poppy doing back?

Garry: Honestly, don't know, dude. That. That was a. That was a weird one for me because it's not even the Doctor that sees Poppy. It's Belinda. So what's the connection between. Between space babies and Poppy and Belinda? Belinda wasn't even around at this point in the Doctor's time stream. So, yeah, I'm not sure what the connection is there. It felt to me like, oh, you know, in some weird horror films or sci fi films, whatever, this has happened quite a few times where somebody has seen somebody that guides them somewhere and then it turns out that it's been like a hallucination or figment of their mind or something like that.

Adam: Yeah.

Garry: So it felt like that felt like Poppy was there for a reason. Sort of guide Belinda to the barbershop to find the Doctor. But I'm not sure why it was that character from that episode. Like, what's the. What? I can't. I can't join the dots basically with that one at the moment. But again, it's something that might pop up in finale future episode. I don't know.

Adam: Could it be? Because, and I've only just remembered, there is another underlying Ark mystery which actually has not been mentioned much this series, which is surprising. But don't forget, there was a whole setup, this mystery setup in Belinda's first episode about the fact that she looks like the character that was in Boom. And the Doctor was like, oh, there's a similar. That's not been mentioned since. Is it that whole mystery that's kind of been forgotten about? I mean, I'm Assuming that's gonna get answered, otherwise why make it into a story in the first episode? So could it play into that? I don't know. I'm intrigued to see where that's going. I hope that's not just gonna fizzle out and be forgotten about or. Because it's odd that hasn't been mentioned, doesn't it? Like we've mentioned the fact that the Doctor. Every week, you know, it's a bit rinse and repeat, oh, I want to go home. I can't get you home. We're nearly there. But instead of having that every week, we could have been reminded about. Yeah, you look a bit like. What were they called that, Captain Monday or something. I don't know, you know, could have been that storyline could have been brought up to remind the viewer. Because I bet. Had you even remembered that storyline until I just mentioned it? Because I. I'd completely forgotten about it until you started talking about, you know, Poppy and could that lead somewhere else? Which triggered my memory that. Oh, we've got another thread that hasn't been answered. So that storyline's fizzled out a bit.

Garry: Yeah. And we're running out of episodes as well next, I'm thinking. Yeah, I don't think anything's going to happen next week because we've got that intergalactic song called. It's like Eurovision on steroids.

Adam: Oh, that's going to be such an interesting review next week.

Garry: So. Yeah, I honestly don't. That to me looks like another isolated story to me based on the trailer. So I don't. I could be wrong, of course, have been many, many times, but I don't think there's going to be any big bombshells dropped next week. I think we're gonna have to wait for the. The next. Presumably a two part finale the week after that kicks off.

Adam: Yeah, I mean the finale's got a lot of stuff to. To to land, isn't it? The Mrs. Flood thing as well.

Garry: Yeah, she wasn't in it that much this week. She was only in it in Belinda's flashback when, you know, when the Doctor was telling the story of Belinda and.

Adam: Yeah.

Garry: How she's such a good person and lovely and stayed with that woman, saved her life and all that. Mrs. Flood just walks past her and says hello and she's come to get a medication and that's it. We don't have any big appeals. Yeah. So, mate, what was that about? Every episode up to now, we've had a nice little very intriguing moment with Mrs. Flood where she's been really cryptic and a little bit sort of borderline sinister in a way, but none of that this week, just a very fleeting. Yeah, hello.

Adam: So I don't know, I'm not sure how else they could have put her into it. I'm trying to think now. Unless they had a riding the spider on the back.

Garry: Yeah, she could have been the spider itself. Face on the front.

Adam: That would have been even more. I mean, it was a bonkers episode. Why not? You know?

Garry: Yeah, let's move on. Just. Let's rattle through just a couple of things that we liked and didn't like before we put a score on it. I really liked the barber character, though, to begin with, you know, at the beginning of the episode, there was a few scenes where it's got the. It's got Omo in the chair and he's telling a story. And then you got the other guys in the barber shop. You never see the barber's face. They sort of had him cut off screen. You only saw his body and, like, the lower part of his face and stuff. It's not until the Doctor turns up that they reveal his face. And I really liked his character, man. Arion Bakari, that guy was brilliant in this. Yeah, really liked him.

Adam: Unsettling, wasn't he? He played it really well, I thought, as the villain. I found him quite, Quite creepy.

Garry: Yeah. What I liked about him the most was his vulnerability, because to begin with, he plays up this bit of a character, doesn't he? He's got this bit of false bravado about him. Yeah. And then the Doctor presses him and presses him and he comes up with this story like he's actually one of the gods. You know, he says that he sort of rattles off this thing where he said that he himself was. Was what the gods, like Anansi and Loki and, you know, tries to scare everybody into thinking that, you know, he's this God, but it turns out he was just working for the gods. He's just. He's a bit of a demigod, where he's, you know, he's got sort of partial sort of powers, if you like. And that enabled him to build this thing called the Nexus, where, you know, he was really proud of this thing with the Nexus, and he basically wanted to be like the ultimate storyteller. So he built this thing where he could connect, like, culture and stories and myths and everything. Called it the Nexus, presented it to the gods and they were just like, yeah, whatever, just very dismissive. And so he wants to take revenge and you know, get them canceled out of human culture. But what he doesn't realize is by doing that, he's going to unravel human existence, essentially, because humans, you know, rely on. On gods as part of their, you know, everyday life and culture and everything and their belief system. So. So when the Doctor sort of sees through that and breaks him down, he's so vulnerable from that point. And then, especially in the last five minutes of the episode, you know, when they're outside, he gets like a second chance, doesn't he? Like, everyone's very forgiving, you know, and wants to give him a second chance and he's overwhelmed a little bit. So hats off. And big round of applause to. To Arion Bakari. Loved his performance, mate.

Adam: Yeah, no, I think he was very good in it, actually. And, I mean, a few people have pointed out as well. Just something that I noticed as well, that, you know, he did get a redemption arc and it did work for his character, but I guess it kind of, after the last couple of weeks, where the Doctor has, you know, laughed at somebody dying, given a big old sort of speech to someone in prison and stuff, you know, was very forgiving towards this character. But I don't know, to me, that's more Doctor like. So I. I didn't mind that. But I do get why people have picked up that, you know, the Doctor was a lot more forgiving this week towards, you know, the bad guy. But that, to me, that's more Doctorish, mate. So, you know, I actually where I. Whereas I've criticized shooty a little bit last couple of weeks, I found him more Doctor ish in this episode. I liked him in this episode a lot more than I have the last couple of weeks. What I would have liked to have said, though, is a bit more of the friendship between him and Omo, you know, because I didn't really feel much chemistry between those two, although they were both, you know, good in their parts. I just thought this is supposed to be this Doctor's, you know, best friend or whatever, or someone he's got to know really well. And I felt like, again, and I think this is down to the timing of the episode. I mean, in terms of it was just a bit rushed and maybe it would have been nice if we'd have seen those two in a previous episode so we already knew. Oh, Mojo. I mean, it just didn't feel the friendship or relationship between the two of them. And therefore I found it really odd when the Doctor just seemed to get cross with Omo out of nowhere. I thought that was a bizarre scene. Again, I thought I'd missed something on a first watch. I actually turned to the other half and was like, why is he. Why is he having to go Omo for? I didn't get it. And then on a second watch there isn't really a build up to that, but I think these little nickels are just part of the whole. Trying to cram everything into 45 minutes. It's like, oh, the Doctor needs to get crossed now so that he opens the door and we realize he's not, you know, he can't escape and all that sort of thing. So, yeah, that's something that could have breathed more and maybe a two parter. I think the friendship between those two.

Garry: Yeah, that's very true. I think that's exactly what is with the runtime and trying to squeeze some stuff in.

Adam: Yeah.

Garry: And interesting as well that you say that in the last couple of episodes and prior in this season, the Doctor not acting quite Doctory that we had expect, like with celebrating someone's death, you know, all this sort of thing. His reaction to Omo it, that was his turn to be undoctory in this one for me a little bit where just, yeah, it felt like just that the, you know, drop of a hat, he's just snapped on his, on his mate and, you know, he's not, it's not like, yeah, you know, it's not like Omo had summoned the Doctor into a trap, knowingly. Yeah, you know, this was just circumstance, you know, the Doctor had turned up out the blue as a coincidence at this point and has stumbled into this problem that his mate's in, you know, so I felt like that was a little bit unjustified to, you know, it's not like he was entrapped into this situation. So. I don't know.

Adam: No, no, I absolutely agree with you, mate. It was very clunky. I do absolutely agree with you.

Garry: Yeah, I really liked Michelle Asantia's Abena and it was really cool. It was, it's the classic old, you know, a woman scorned, you know, that old fable, you know, there's nothing, I don't know what the full saying is, but essentially, you know, a woman scorned is not to be trifled with and holds a bit of, a, bit of a grudge. So it all goes back to this thing with the fugitive Doctor, doesn't it, where there was this bet that, you know, if the Doctor loses the bet or something like that, or if Abena lost the bet, then they'd have to marry the Doctor and they'd go off and stuff, and the Doctor wasn't having it. And Joan Martin's doctor said, you know, quite nicely, and, you know, I'm sorry, darling, but I had my own beep going on at the time. You know, I had stuff, stuff going on, so. And that all comes good. But she played that character in two halves really well, the first two thirds of the story, where she played that very betrayed, you know, not happy with the Doctor at all. If looks could kill. Yeah, not good. And then in the last third, where she kind of realizes that she's been lied to, although she's in cahoots with the barber, she's. She's been lied to, essentially, and it's the outcome that he's told her is not the actual outcome that's going to happen if he goes through with the plan. So, you know, she's a bit more forgiving and then, you know, forgives the Doctor and then at the end she's very happy and goes on about her business, so. But I really liked her performance as well, mate. Thought she was good.

Adam: Yeah. I'll be honest, she got a little bit lost in the mix the first time I watched this, but I definitely appreciated more her performance in the second. Second watch. Yeah.

Garry: And I. I don't know the characters names, but the. The dudes that were in the barbershop that we see throughout the majority of the episode, I. There's sort of not one that stands out, but they've all got their sort of individual personalities. I think they even say that when they're telling the Doctor Who they are and the people that they're missing on the outside and they can't wait to get back to and stuff. It was really cool to see that, you know, sort of band of mates who are petrified of what's gonna happen to them, but at the same time, they're sort of chilling out in the barbershop and not sort of going on. It kind of links into. Back into the whole. The black culture thing with barbershops. Anyone that's seen the Pixar film Soul from a few years ago, really good if you've ever dived into the making of. Of that film. One of the co directors, a guy called Kemp Powers, he was basically saying that as a black man, I wanted to try and get, you know, some kind of culture into the film. And he said one of the. One of the best sort of social interactions is in a barbershop. If you go into a black Barbershop, you know, people spend hours in there, get their hair cut and then they're just in there for another few hours just trading stories, hanging out, gossiping, all the rest of it. So this really plays into that cultural thing as well. So that was cool. So like I said, I don't know the whole individual character names, but those guys that were just in the barbershop, that was really cool vibe. And they're all. Especially at the end when they were smiling and laughing. It's a bit of a feel. Good at the end.

Adam: Yeah, yeah. As an assembled cast, I think everyone, you know, although those guys didn't stand out, they definitely all worked together to create that sort of atmosphere, didn't they? Which worked really well.

Garry: Yeah. Yes. Okay. We spoke about Shooty and Varada Sethi. So she's not in it a great deal. She has a few lines, isn't she? But nothing too crazy. And then Shooty, we spoke about his doctor in this one. Is there anyone else you want to mention, dude, before anything else, the only other thing I do want to mention, dude, is Murray Gold's music. Again, we've gone back to generic sci fi a little bit and a bit too loud in the mix. I know it's not Murray's fault, but whoever's doing the audio mixes on this one, I don't know, I think they want. I think they want to work on Marvel films. I think that's their vibe. They want to do like massive high action cinema style, you know, sound mixes. But yeah, it's. It's. Did you say you put subtitles on, mate? The second time.

Adam: The second time. I mean, I thought the audio mix was dreadful this week and I don't think it was just the. I don't think it's necessarily the music drowning out the dialogue. Murray's music, by the way. Fine. This week, nothing amazing, but, you know, it was nice. But the actual sound mix of the audio, even in the quieter moments, as I said earlier, I don't know if it was the actors mumbling or just a really bad sound mix, but it was bad. Unless my ears are finally gone, which wouldn't surprise me. But I really struggled to hear what was being said a lot of the time. So I put the subtitles on a second watch to actually try and get to grips with what was being said.

Garry: Same. It was like that. We've had that this season. I. Mate, it seems like each episode I've had a bit. So I've had to rewind, hit the old back by 10 seconds. And try and pick out what someone said.

Adam: Yeah, It's a common thing with today's television, how they make it. I don't know why, because this has been happening for years, isn't it? Where people have said, music's too loud, I can't hear it. I mean, when I go back and watch the Series 1 DVD, you know, Eccleston, the sound mix is really bad at times. The music's, you know, blaring out and then you have to turn it down and you turn it back up to hear the dialogue. So it's know, how is it still being made like this? It's as if they think everyone's got 5.1 sound systems in their house. You know, I'm pretty sure that's how they mix it. They must have a, you know, in their big studio, they must have real good surround sound and it probably sounds great, but when you're watching on just a normal television, it's, it's not, not good. The only other thing I've got on my list, mate, is I just put. I thought I was interested. The Doctor says the TARDIS cuts his hair. I thought that was interesting. Like, I'd like to see how that works. And I did think the whole thing. And again, this is a real thing that they, you know, that happens and they put it into the episode and was quite interesting to see was when they, you know, braided the Doctor's hair to make a map. I thought, you know, that was a lovely, lovely idea and something that, as I said, I think they used to do. So it's quite educational and, you know, I thought it was a nice way to actually wrap up the episode and actually have him escape by having the map in his hair and stuff. So I thought that was really cool.

Garry: Agreed on that. Yeah. And the actual design of the spider and stuff, you know, walking through on its web and, and all that stuff is sort of symbolically very cool.

Adam: He actually called it the World Wide Web, didn't he? I mean, he had to. Yeah, okay, come on, you know.

Garry: Yeah, that was a little bit obvious, wasn't it? Like, okay, yeah, writers doing writery things, you know, for the sake of the viewer to, you know, we need to make sure the viewer gets what we're talking about in this line of dialogue. So we'll go right on the nose. We'll go really over the top obvious. Yeah, yeah, yeah, dude. The audio mix is done by a third party company.

Adam: Well, they should be sacked.

Garry: No lie. Bang. Post Production in Cardiff handled the, the post audio mixing etc. And interestingly enough, though, they handled series two of the Sarah Jane adventures, and that was okay. And series one of class. So, mate, go back and watch class all from the beginning.

Adam: Oh, I'd love to.

Garry: Let us know what it's like, the audio, please.

Adam: Yeah, I'll do that straight away, mate. As soon as you finish, I'll get it on. Oh, damn. I don't think they have it over here in the U.S. oh, no. I'd love to buy the Blu Ray.

Garry: Right, anything else on the notes? Let's have a look. Yeah, I was just gonna pick up on the. The cool design for the big brain at the back of the barber shop, which was, you know, in the beating heart, which is the barber's, you know, thing, and. And all that was pretty good. Oh, and I really liked the way that the Doctor had finished off the whole. The engine that needed this fuel via way of stories where he used Hemingway's short six word story. And he did it in a way that was like, you know, I am born. I am, and I'm born and stuff. So essentially just overloading the, you know, the spider's cognitive ability to process that, and it just went into overload. And that was pretty sweet.

Adam: Yeah, I like the brain, mate. I got flashbacks to the whole time in the Rani brain. You know, when she had it up in that room. Kind of reminded me of that.

Garry: Oh, yeah, yeah.

Adam: But visually, I really like this episode, mate. I think visually it was lovely. All the art stuff and the brain and all that, it's all good. It looked good as an episode, I thought, yes.

Garry: All right, let's whack a score on it then. Dude, she needs to go first.

Adam: Yeah, I'm gonna give it a 6.5 this week, I think. I think the writer, he's delivered a good script, but I think Russell, and we all know he likes to get his fingers in and, you know, put his own little bits into script. I think Russell should have said, right, you've delivered a good script here. But I need to just, you know, need to just make a couple of little alterations to make this work because to me, it was close to being, you know, quite a good story, but just, yeah, just got too muddled. So I can't really go any higher than that. 6.5.

Garry: 6.5. Okay. I'm gonna give this a seven out of ten. Yes, I. I quite like this one. It wasn't. There was a lot to like about it, as I said at the beginning, and I loved some of the performances and the overall, the story was. Was reasonably good and I love the cultural setting and all that stuff. It's really cool. But I can't go any higher than that just because of, again, what I mentioned earlier, where it feels like it's there, it's almost there, but it's just getting stuck in a certain gear in terms of narrative and some pieces sort of, you know, slotting into place. So I. I'm watching it in little pockets of brilliance and I'm thinking, yeah, this bit's good and that bit's good. But when I finish watching it, I'm like, okay, that was cool, that was good, I enjoyed it. But I'm not walking away thinking, that was amazing. Like, that was absolutely amazing. And I'm itching to watch next week. I'm just not feeling that right now. But that aside, I do think this was a. A solid watch. So I'm going to stick with a 7.

Adam: 7. Talking to next week, mate. Are you a Eurovision fan? I get the feeling you're not sure.

Garry: I'm not, mate. I think it's the most boring blow. I know you like it, but I think I get so bored, mate.

Adam: Honestly, I have that. In previous years I have enjoyed Eurovision quite a lot. I'd been to a couple of Eurovision parties. I can't remember. I don't know. It's going to be an interesting one next week. I think it's a genius idea to actually do a doctor Eurovision episode before Eurovision. How that will pay off, we shall see. I'm actually really looking forward to next week. Or this week even.

Garry: This week's Indeed. Yes. Okay then. So on that note, on a song note, let's end it there for episode 424, mate.

Adam: Tada.

Garry: Thank you so much for listening to another episode of the Big Blue Box podcast. That was 424. And our review of the story and the engine wear it was a 6.5 from him and a 7 from me. We'll be back next week to review this week's episode of the Rylan's big Doctor Who debut.

Adam: He's the Master. I'm calling it now. He's the master is he's got a beard and a mustache. He must be.

Garry: Oh, we shall see. It's the last one in the series before Russell takes back writing duties, so we will see what goes on with that one. But stay tuned for our review of that next next week. You can do that by making sure you are following along in whatever podcast app of choice you listen to your podcast on that way you won't miss a notification when it drops and you can listen to all the back catalog and all that stuff from many years of us waffling about Doctor Who. You can also listen online over at bigblueboxpodcast.co.uk. you can also check out the reviews from the writing team and their editorials, etc. Links to the show notes, links to the socials should I say are on the website and the link to the Discord server. Hop in there and chat lots of Doctor Who goodness with other who fans. Don't forget to remember to check out my co host channel once again on YouTube. Once again it is the Geeks Handbag.

Adam: The Geek Sandbag. Also on all the socials under the same name, the Geek Sandbag.

Garry: Go and check him out. So yes we will be back next week and who knows what's going to happen in next week review? I really don't know but we look forward to it nonetheless. So until then my name's Garry. My name's Adam and remember.