The Reality of Current Doctor Who – Season 2: The Reality War

Garry: Hey, hey, hey who fans and welcome to the Big Blue Box Podcast. My name's Garry.

Adam: My name's Adam.

Garry: And welcome to episode 427. Welcome back to another episode who fans, we hope you are keeping well and safe. We hope you've had a cracking couple of weeks that you've all managed to do something. Doctor. Doctor Who related. Just got in there.

Adam: That was close.

Garry: You paused for a fraction too long there, bud.

Adam: You snooze, you lose.

Garry: That's the moral. That's the story of the day. There we go. So we are at 427. Thank you very much for bearing with us. We've had a bit of time off, really inconveniently planned in the world of Doctor Who. Adam's been traveling back from the US to the uk. I've been traveling over to the US For a vacation and this all happened, as I said, quite inconveniently. It turns out that when you're planning trips and stuff like that and you say to your better half, yeah, but we can't go then because of Doctor Who. Apparently that doesn't hold much water.

Adam: No, apparently don't go down well.

Garry: Doesn't go down that well. So, yeah, on the flip side, it has given us an opportunity to watch the episode a couple of times, digest it a little bit, and listen to some other podcasts who have. Who have given their thoughts and read some blogs and just absorbed, you know, what fandom's thinking and. And all the rest of it. So, yeah, just want to give a wee shout out to some other Doctor Who podcasts that we've. I don't know about you, bud, but I still listen to about a handful of Doctor Who pods these days.

Adam: Yeah, me too.

Garry: Yeah, and not as many as I used to. Some of them, sadly, have fallen by the wayside of recent years. But yeah, the Doctor Who podcast dot com. Those guys always do a good one. Who's he podcast? The Doctor Who show. Our friends down under, they always got a good take. And Radio Free Scaro, those guys are always, I think consistent is probably the best way to describe that one. But bit like ourselves over the years, they've just. Just turn up and show up and do the show. I mean, the other guys do that as well. Doctor Who show and those guys do it. But the old Radio Free Scaro dudes have been doing it for so long now. Consistency is the name of the game with those guys.

Adam: I'm going to throw in the 50% podcast as well. 50, 50. I love those guys.

Garry: Oh, 50%. Yeah.

Adam: Yeah.

Garry: Those two Aussies as well, right?

Adam: Yeah, from down under.

Garry: Very, very cool, those guys. Really cool on Tick Tock. By the way, if any of you are Doctor Who tick tockers, then check out 50. They do loads of really cool. They've got the Tick Tock thing nailed.

Adam: Yes.

Garry: For Doctor Who, corner to corner. Those guys are cool. They've had some good guests on over the years. Quite like their. Their take on it. And there was another one, Phil. What's. Phil? You know Phil.

Adam: Phil Cannon.

Garry: He's been around. Phil Cannon. That's. Who's he, isn't he? Sorry, yeah, I've said that.

Adam: I was gonna say he's. Who's he?

Garry: Yeah, yeah.

Adam: Although he does jump on the Doctor Who show as well, I think. Yeah, he does, he does, yeah.

Garry: There's a couple of others that I listen to, but I can't remember top my head what they are. So it's been cool just to check out what fandom's thinking and. And stuff like that as we fill up the notebook with thoughts and whatnot.

Adam: So it's always mixed, isn't it? That's why I like to listen to a variety of podcasts because you think, you know, you think, oh, these guys are gonna. And then, yeah, it, you know, the reaction is always different on the, on the shows, you know, there's. It's not like. Although it's been fairly consistent on this particular finale, I think. But yeah, it's always good to get a few variety of opinions. I find myself as well sometimes listening and. And I'm sure people do with us as well. And when they don't, their views don't align with mine and I'm sort of shouting at my phone saying, what are you talking about? It was rubbish, you know, so. But that's half the fun of it, I think, is. Yeah, of course, other people's thoughts.

Garry: Yeah, yeah, of course. It's very cool that. And before we get going of our review and on the reality war, I'm going to forget later, so I'm going to ask you now, what did you think to the trailer for the War between the Land and the Sea? Because that dropped afterwards, didn't it? And you and I have had some interesting thoughts on. Because this is one of the first sort of proper spin offs we've seen since, I guess, class. I think class would have been the last.

Adam: When you say it, it's like a dagger for the class. Cosmic angst every time you say that word. Yeah.

Garry: But the trailer dropped for it. And I will say, mate, I was pleasantly surprised by, by the trailer. So I know you. Obviously the trailer is a. Somewhat of an indication of what to expect, but you should never go on that, of course, to see what the actual thing is going to be like, whether it's TV or films. But what do you think to the trailer drop?

Adam: Yeah, I thought the trailer looked pretty good. I mean, this is it. Because this is the thing I keep forgetting this spin off is even, you know, you know, happening until someone mentions it or we see a trailer. So, you know, I, I kind of don't feel like I'm that bothered about watching it, but when I saw the trailer, mate, yeah, I thought that looks decent. Production values, looks good. I, I got a bit of a sort of torch with Children of Earth vibe. It looks like it's taking, you know, a bit more adult, a bit more. Taking itself a bit more seriously. I'm not sure about the fish person design, what that is, so I'm intrigued by that. But no, I thought the trailer looked good, mate. And it's the first thing that actually made me sort of sit up and, and take notice of this spin off because up till now I've really been so unbothered about it. Yeah, it looked, it looked good, I thought. I mean, the problem is, I don't. We don't know when we're getting it. Is this. Is it this year, next year? When's it coming?

Garry: Well, it's expected to be released in 2025. That's the.

Adam: Oh, it is coming this year. Okay.

Garry: Supposedly. Yeah, but, yeah, well, like any, if anything, about the recent era of Doctor Who has taught us all the basic. You could use this line to answer anybody's question about anything to do with Doctor Who these days. And the answer is who bloody knows?

Adam: Right?

Garry: That's your answer to pretty much every question whether it's. Is this character coming back? Could you, you know, what went on with this storyline? What was that plot thing there?

Adam: Yeah.

Garry: Is the War between the Land and the Sea coming? The answers. Who bloody knows?

Adam: Have they finished filming it? I'm assuming it's all in the can and ready to go. Is it? They're probably doing post production on it, but yeah.

Garry: So that was filmed that wrapped up December last year. So between August and December, that was all filmed and.

Adam: Yeah.

Garry: And done.

Adam: Yeah, yeah. No, I thought it looked good. The trailer looked promising. I think that's the word I'd use. I sort of. Yeah. When it finished, I thought, that looks promising. And I like Russell Tovey, mate. Actually, he's a good little actor and, and so having him in it I think is a plus because the unit lot, I mean, I don't know, that's not enough to sort of. That's not enough to get me in as a viewer. But I think Rusty is a good actor and also I. He's one of the nicest people I've ever bumped into. So, you know, like with celebrities, people say, oh, what were they like when you met him? I bumped into him randomly in London ago and mate, he could not have been nicer. You know, just he stopped and chatted and had pictures and yeah, it was a lovely meeting. So whenever I see him, he's already won me over because I think, oh, he was lovely when I met him. So I'm quite looking forward to it. Actually. I wanted to ask you something. Did you watch the Doctor Who unleashed 20 years thing? Of course, yeah.

Garry: Pretty good that.

Adam: Yeah. I mean, I. I've been a bit grumpy after the finale. Sorry. Not to give any spoilers away about my thoughts, but I was a bit like, oh, I'm not bothered about it, I'm not watching it. And then I really was being grumpy and then it just. I was watching some YouTube late at night because I've been suffering from the old jet lag. I've been staying awake watching YouTube. Took all hours. And I switched off YouTube and it was on the TV. It was actually on at like half 11 at night. I guess they were repeating it or something because I assumed it was just an iplayer thing, you know, I thought you actually had to go and seek it out to watch it. So it was on the TV and I thought, I'll watch it. And mate, I'm so glad I did actually. It's watching all those early clips and a few little behind the scenes bits and I mean, I wish it had been longer. I know they rushed us out. I know it was a bit of an afterthought to even put this show together. And it did show because they really skipped through certain eras, particularly Capaldi, which a lot of people have picked up on blink and you miss it. But it was, it was so lovely actually. It really reminded me what I love about this show. In some ways it made me feel a little bit sad about the sort of place we're in now. You know, when it finished, this sort of limbo we're in and the way the sort of show's gone, I thought, oh, it's a shame actually, when you look back at, particularly for Me, when seeing the behind the scenes of Matt, Karen and Arthur just messed around. I said, I just saw those guys just. I don't know, they just had such a good friendship, it seemed, and it really translated to screen. So seeing those guys messing around behind the scenes and Billy talking with David and, yeah, it was just lovely, I thought, really nice. I know they rushed in and put it together and it could have been better, but it was a nice little sort of sum up of, of the last sort of 20 years of what they're calling New who. Which considering it's 20 years old, I'm not sure we could still call it New who. But anyway, yeah, we know what they mean.

Garry: Yeah, it was a good, it was a good one, that one. It was. And as someone who's half, half Welsh, I, I really appreciated the, the spin on this one. So it was 20 years in Wales. Yeah, was the, was the hook for it. And so, yeah, I really liked it and I absolutely agree. Whenever you see Billy Piper and David Tennant, they're always just chummy and laugh. You can tell they're good mates and, and, and it's all good. But I had similar feelings, mate, I'll be honest with you. When that finished, I thought, oh, that was, I don't know, just. I know everything looks a bit rosier and nicer and with your nostalgia goggles on and I totally get that. But I did have a little feeling of Doctor Who feels very, very different now and we could, I think we could spend an entire podcast episode diving into why that is. But I think, yeah, just overall I just. Similar to you, I felt like I've got a very different feeling now after watching an era or a series of Doctor Who now versus, you know, series three or four one. Whatever, you know, whatever it is.

Adam: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know, I know it would probably never happen because it would take a lot to do, but I would love to see like a show like that. But if they could manage to get like Peter Capaldi and Matt Smith to actually come back and partake in it and just talk about that, I would just love to hear, you know, them reminisce about the talent show because David obviously came back with Billy and there was some really nice little segments with them. So they come back and chatted about their time and even that was really interesting because they again, obviously get on really well. There was lots of laughter and smiles and reminiscing and there was a little bit where Billy said, you know, oh, I wasn't actually going to come back for Another series after Chris left, I sort of thought now, and David was like, really? What made you come back? And so I thought, oh, that's interesting. I had no idea. I just, you know, just assumed that she was up for doing it. So I was thinking, I would have liked to heard more about that. Why did what. You know, why didn't you want to come back? Was it. It was the first. It was not that good. And in terms of production, did you not enjoy doing it? What happened? And then she was saying, you know, she was so glad she did because her and David just clicked and they laughed pretty much every day on set and all this sort of thing. So there were some nice little nuggets in there. And I thought, God, imagine having, you know, Peter and, dare I say it, Jenna come back. But, you know, I'd still be interested. I'd be interested to hear them talk about stuff like that. I mean, I was amazed. Jenna Coleman didn't even make the cut. She wasn't in the show at all, considering what a big part she was of the latter era, of Clara, who. She wasn't even in it. So, yeah, it would be lovely, wouldn't it, if we could do like a proper, you know, real retrospective? You get all the old, you know, all the new, whatever, Doctors back. Chris, of course, would never do it. But be fascinating, though, wouldn't it, to hear there.

Garry: That'd be amazing.

Adam: Look back on, you know, that time.

Garry: But it would be amazing. I think they will do it one day. One day.

Adam: One day, yeah.

Garry: In the future, I think. Give it another 15, 20 years when they're a bit older and, you know, because I think a lot of actors go through that, that period of reflection when they want to make that. That public, where they want to write a book or they want to start a podcast or whatever, so, you know, they start to talk about things a bit more publicly once they've been out of something like that for a while. I think David Tennant, though, I think he's just. He's always just going to be Mr. Doctor Who. I think anytime that the. The BBC or Russell or somebody says, dave, do you want to come and be in this interview? He's like, yeah, I was meant to fly out to LA in the morning and settle this, you know, this budget and get paid 3 or 4 million dollars for this film. But, yeah, I'm gonna drop that and come and do this Doctor Who thing in rainy Cardiff.

Adam: Yeah.

Garry: So I'll see you in the morning.

Adam: He is. I mean, that was lovely, wasn't it. That's what you do, get that impression with David. That was lovely. When him and Billy were talking about the Dalek and how she was. He was so fanboying over the Dalek when he first saw it. And Billy was, like, so unbo by, but knew that it was a big thing, so she was like. So I had to pretend. And he's like, yeah, you weren't fooling anyone. You know, there's like David on his knees going, oh, wow, this is amazing. And Billy's like, yeah, wow. And he's like, you haven't got a clue, have you? This is doing nothing for you. You know, there were lovely moments like that. I think Matt would come back, actually. I mean, the other bit I loved about it was Steven Moffat. He's so dry. I love the old Mothball, mate, don't you? When he's in interviews, he's such a dry old stick. And I mean that with love, you know, in a good way. And he was like, I. I text this morning and said, you know, why did you leave? And he said, oh, I wish I was still on set now and all this. And, you know, there is. Yeah, you can see there is really light, nice friendships and. And things that are still there. You know, even though actors have moved on and they're still in touch with each other, the moth still texts his Matt and, you know, stuff like that. So, yeah, I can imagine Matt coming back and doing something. Maybe when he's a bit older, he will do defo. Yeah, yeah. And he's less busy. He's probably out filming another Terminator film. But, you know, whatever he's doing now, I don't know what he's doing now. I love Matt, by the way. He's still. Even when I watch clips, he's still, to me, the best. Him and Capaldi, maybe the best Doctors we've had since the show came back. I just. Yeah, whenever I see Matt, mate, I just think I'm, you know, just want to watch whatever episode that they're showing. Not because it's a good episode, just because of him, you know, he's amazing. Yeah, he is.

Garry: Yeah. When you and I were going through our retro reviews, you know, when we were. What's the phrase? We were clearing the board. We were just getting through every episode of Doctor Who ever.

Adam: Yeah.

Garry: And, you know, back in the day, so going back a few years, if you're a new listener, we used to do this sort of rotation where we. Throughout the month, if it was a standard four week, month, week, one I think was a new. A new, like, recent Doctor Who. Week two was Torchwood. I think week three was classic who, and week four was the Sarah Jane adventures.

Adam: Yeah.

Garry: And we did a couple of years of that rotation. It was really cool. And every time we got onto a Matt Smith episode, you and I would inevitably say similar things in our review. It'd be. The more we watch Matt, the more he just is just a hundred percent one of the best Doctors.

Adam: Yes.

Garry: To be, you know, one of the best actors to be the Doctor in the. In the current years, you know, the recent revival years. And he's. He's a gem. I have not watched Matt in a while. I'll be honest with you. I've not watched a Matt Smith episode in.

Adam: Or.

Garry: It must be pushing on for a couple of years now, mate. At least. Yeah. So I think I'm slowly going through a. A bit of a re. Watch of all of Doctor Who at the moment. I'm just coming up to the end of. This is going to be a long chew, but I'm coming up to the end of Hartnell's era. I started this last year and I'm only up to the end of Hartnell, so. But when I, you know, in 50 years, when I get to Matt Smith stuff, it's going to be awesome. But, yeah, I agree, mate. He is one of the best.

Adam: And actually, somebody said it. I think it was on that show. No, it must have been a podcast I was listening to or something. Said the thing that I've always said. I loved him at the time. He was. But he was a young guy and I would. Now he's a bit older and a bit more aged and he looks a bit more rugged. I just think, wow, imagine what it'd be like as the Doctor now. I mean, I would love him to come back, but I wouldn't because he's already. Let's say he. He hadn't been the Doctor before. I would love Matt to play the Doctor now. I mean, I still would, actually, if he come back. I think I love him so much that I actually wouldn't be bothered. But I just think, you know, in the last few years, he's really sort of. I don't know, I just think he'd be phenomenal as the Doctor now as this slightly more age, because when you see him in the 11th hour, when they show clips of it, he think, freaking heck, he was so young. You know, how was he that good at that age? So imagine what he'd be like now.

Garry: Yeah, I don't know whether he'd ever come back and do another stint as, like, you know, do it, do a tenant and come back as some kind of. I don't know, maybe in X amount of years, when whatever showrunner has figured out that there's also another way of regenerating and another. We've had standard generation regen and, yeah, we've now had bi generations. There'll be another way of, you know, things happening in the Doctor Who universe when we're. I was going to say when we're old and decrepit. But we're already there. Already there, you know, so Matt Smith, he might. He might come back at some point in some way. The showrunners invented this way for a previous incarnation to come back. It would be amazing.

Adam: Yeah, yeah. And how many, just lastly, how many of those castles in Cardiff have you been to? Or Wales, I should say, have you been to. Because there was. I didn't realize there was so many castles that there. Because I've only been to one of them, I think. But you've been. Probably been to all of them.

Garry: Bloody hell. You've been to one castle.

Adam: I think I've only been to the one in. The one in the middle. I've only been to Wales probably two or three times in my whole life. Yeah. Now I want to go to the big. The big one by the beach, by Bad Wolf beach, whatever. That's the one I want to go to, which I'm pretty sure you'd have.

Garry: Been to the one down. Oh, there's. What's the.

Adam: I don't even know the names of the.

Garry: The actual name for that beach and that stuff there. I can't remember what it is. But yeah, there's a big, Big, like, proper old school stone castle.

Adam: Yeah.

Garry: Down by there. Yeah, there's been a load of castles that have been in. In Doctor Who, mate. Yeah. Caerphilly Castle and Cafilius. Yeah, yeah, there's been loads and I do love. Yeah. But, yeah, Wales has got. I think something is ridiculous, like, per square mile, Wales has got more castles than any other country in Europe or something like that.

Adam: I'm definitely overdue a visit to Wales, mate. I've. I, I absolutely loved it when I went all those years ago. Went to Eddie's Diner, which is no longer there, of course. Went to the Torchwood Hub. I didn't make it to Sarah Jane's House. That's somewhere that's still on my list of places to go. Have you been there? I can't remember.

Garry: I Have. Yeah, it's not too far. It's from. From Cardiff Town, City center. Yeah, it's not too far. But you need to go down to Yanto Shrine as well, down by the bay.

Adam: Oh, yeah, I went there because this was when I went. It was. I went to the Doctor exhibition. I know. Shouldn't mention it. I don't want to. Don't get teared up. So it was back in those days, whenever that. And I went to the studio on the TARDIS set and. Oh, man. Yeah. I was in heaven that weekend, I tell you. Yeah, yeah. But, yes, I did Yanto Shrine, obviously. I'm so glad it's still there as well. I mean, you know, I am going back years that I visited it and it's still there. Going strong.

Garry: It is, yeah. I was there, I think, two months ago.

Adam: Yeah.

Garry: Three months ago. And it's still just as it was. Yeah. Five years ago.

Adam: There's always a big old pair of pants or knickers. Somebody always puts a pair up on there, which is good to see with Yanto's face on it. But, yeah, no, it is cool in it. And I mean, I've seen. I forget the actor's name. What's Iantos? What's the actor called? I've seen.

Garry: He's not. Russell Tovey.

Adam: No, no, no, not.

Garry: Yeah. What's his name?

Adam: David Lloyd. Is it?

Garry: I think so.

Adam: Just doesn't sound right in my head. But I know that he occasionally pops and takes a selfie outside the front of it to post on, like, Twitter, doesn't he, to say, oh, still here, sort of thing, which must be quite surreal for him. Yeah, you Google.

Garry: Gareth David Lloyd.

Adam: Gareth David Lloyd. That's it.

Garry: Yeah, that's the one. Again, if you're a new listener. That's our thing. We're absolutely shocking with names.

Adam: Yeah.

Garry: It's just the thing we've got together. It's like a weird coincidence. It's like out of two co hosts, one of them should be good with names, the other one's bad. But no, we're both absolutely terrible and.

Adam: We'Re not getting any better with age. We're getting worse.

Garry: There you go.

Adam: So, yeah, don't expect that to improve anytime soon, dear listener, if anything, it's.

Garry: Going to get worse. It is so welcome. Welcome to the podcast. On a serious note, welcome to the podcast. New listeners and old grizzled ancients, it's great to have you listening to us. Waffle. It's 20 minutes in. We should probably get onto the review before we crack on with that. If you are a new listener, make sure you're following or subscribing to the podcast as you'll get a notification every time we drop a new episode. And we also do a monthly roundtable where we get the guys over at the writing team who do all the blogs and articles to the website. We get them on and we just chat about random stuff to do with Doctor Who. It's all good. The next one we'll do for that. Those guys are going to dive into their thoughts on the Reality War and Wish Weld. I think they're going to. They all want to talk about the two part finale and so on. So that will be coming up. So make sure you're following for that stuff. You can find us on all the major podcast platforms or you can head over to the website and listen there, which is bigblueboxpodcast.co.uk. all the episodes are there, plus all the reviews and articles and whatnot from the writing team. While you're there, you can link off to the social channels. We're on all of those. We chat Doctor Who throughout the week, so come and get involved there. And there's a link to the free Discord server. It's another place to hang out and chat Doctor Who with lots of other cool Doctor Who fans. And lastly, don't forget to remember to head over to YouTube. Type in the old search bar, the Geek's Handbag.

Adam: The Geeks Handbag. Yeah, that's my YouTube channel. I really want that on a T shirt. By the way, mate, don't forget to remember. Yeah, my YouTube channel, the Geeks Handbag. Also on all the socials under the same name.

Garry: Indeedy. Come check it out. Alrighty, bud. For the last time in Ncuti's era.

Adam: Yeah.

Garry: What are we reviewing this week?

Adam: Yeah, let's wrap this era up. The episode was called The Reality War.

Trailer: Deep in the underburse. Omega. With his body I can resurrect the time and construct a new color frame. My battle is in there. Saving my daughter. I swear I will stop you. Omega. Omega. Omega. Omega. Fire.

Garry: Lots going on.

Adam: Lots going on. Yeah. Lots of noise.

Garry: Yep. Before we crack on, is it Omega or O? Is it Omega or Omega?

Adam: Omega.

Garry: I thought it was omega.

Adam: I've always said omega and but I mean it's pronounced about three different ways in this one episode, so I think anything goes, mate, I think.

Garry: Cool.

Adam: Yeah.

Garry: Yeah. A couple of people there scored me up on the old Twitter on the pronunciation, so I think I went back and checked out a couple of clips on YouTube of the three doctors. And I think I'm writing saying that Pertwee is like Omega.

Adam: Omega is mate. And actually it's funny because I knew that you'd somebody had ticked you off on Twitter or wherever about your pronunciation of it. And when I was watching the episode with my partner, I did turn to him and say, do you know what? Someone had to go at Garry about mispronouncing Omega. It's been mispronounced about three times in this episode. So, you know, I think we should let him off. Yeah, I don't think it matters anymore. So, yeah, I did think of you, mate, while I was watching this.

Garry: Apparently it's a. It's a longer O sound followed by a shorter. So it's Omega. Omega as opposed to Omega. I think Omega is the, is the thumbs down get told off for that one.

Adam: It's the whole metabilis metabis, whatever thing. It all over again. Metabolism. Yeah, you know, it depends what directors on set that day, I think. Yeah, yeah, yeah, we'll get to that though. We'll get to. I did notice that it, you know, even Ncuti said it different ways in different scenes. I kept thinking, what's going on? As someone corrected him halfway through the shoot and said, oh, by the way, we've just realized just saying it wrong. So say it like this now. So just. Yeah, anyway, Omega.

Garry: Anyway. The Reality War first broadcast on 31 May a couple of weeks ago. It was written by Russell T. Davis, directed by Alex Sanjeev Balai, and it stars Shatwa Virada Sethi as Belinda, Millie Gibson as Ruby and then a bunch of other people. And the synopsis is short and sweet. Battle rages across the skies as the unholy trinity unleash their deadly ambition. The Doctor, Belinda and Ruby, to risk everything in their quest to save one innocent life. So, Bud, as always, what do you think to the Reality War?

Adam: Well, mate, what an absolute dog's dinner this was. If I, if I. I mean, if I'd have paid £17 or whatever it was to see this at the cinema, I think I'd have thrown my popcorn at the screen, honestly.

Garry: Oh, mate. Oh, mate.

Adam: Yeah, I thought it was terrible. I. I was. Wasn't expecting it to be good. I mean, my expectations were pretty low anyway because of Russell's finals. But the thing with this, mate, is, and you said earlier, there was a lot of noise. There was a lot going on, a lot of screaming, a lot of shouting, a lot of explosions, a Lot of expedition, you know, things happening. And I was just unengaged by all of it. I was just sat there thinking, God, I watched this again last night. I thought, you know, because we've had a bit of a break in between. I thought, yeah, we'll give this another watch, you know, because let it all sink in. And obviously there is quite a bit to talk about and stuff. Oh, I tell you, mate, honestly, about 10 minutes in and I'm not even, you know, just literally 10 minutes, not even further. I was thinking, I am really struggling with this. I can't wait for this episode to end. Just. It just was even worse in a way, on the second watch. Yeah, I just thought it was terrible. A terrible final. Nothing landed for me at all. I think watching it again last night, if I'm honest, when. When the episode, I think probably originally ended and then it does feel very tacked on, the last sort of 20 minutes, you know, I think we know there was reshoots or whatever. I actually think, if anything, the only bit I really enjoyed was when the episode actually stopped shouting and blowing things up and calmed down. And we got the whole scene with the Doctor realizing he's got to regenerate. And there's a nice scene where he goes back and he realizes he's not Poppy's dad and all. And the thing where I'm conflicted is, mate, I think that's the bit where I actually felt some sort of connection to the episode in terms of I was actually feeling a bit emotion that the Doctors, like, I can never have kids and all this. Oh, it's actually okay. These scenes are quite nice. But the problem is that none of it really made sense of what come before. And you. I felt like you could tell that. That, you know, a lot of this was rewritten to accommodate Ncuti leaving, because I don't believe he. It was always the plan. I think he said that in Unleashed. I think that's clearly not true. We heard him on At Norton saying he was doing another series, even though they cut the line out and we've already talked about him leaving. And, you know, it's absolutely fair enough that he's decided to move on at this point with the way things are going, so. But, yeah, for me, mate, this episode was. Was just a mess, an absolute mess. And I didn't find it entertaining. I didn't find it satisfying at all, really. I didn't really feel much emotion when Ncuti regenerated. And as for the person that popped up at the end, I'm Just going to say this, right, I. I really like Billie Piper and I do think she's a good actor. And a bit like with Russell Tovey, she's springs to mind as one of the nicest people I've met in person. I didn't meet her at convention, I actually met her at Stage Door, and I was really impressed how she interacted with fans, how she had time for everyone. So I'm a. I'm a fan of Billy Piper, right, as an actor and as a person, as someone I've met, but I just was like, what's this about? You know, I don't think she's the Doctor. I think Russell's put her in there as a bit of a placeholder, to be honest, as something to sort of get us talking, to keep the show rather than just sort of ending with an open regeneration, it's something for us to talk about. So I don't mind if she does turn out to be the Doctor. I. At this point, I don't think I really care, but it's no slight on Billy. I'm no problem with him at all. I just. At this point, I'm just like. I don't know where Russell's going with this. And the sad thing is, I don't think I care. So, yeah, this episode, mate, it just left me feeling like that, to be honest with you. So not good. And I don't like feeling like that battle, too. In a way, it's been good that we've had these two weeks off, because I feel like this might sound a bit overdramatic, but I feel like I've had to step away, mate, to be honest. You know, you talked about watching Doctor Who again. I. I have not wanted to go near Doctor Who since this episode aired. I've really needed a break from it. It's almost like a. Like a relationship split. You think? No, you know, we're still friends, but I need to just step away for a bit and that. I know that sounds dramatic, but that's genuinely how I felt. I've just not really wanted to engage or even talk about Doctor Who for the last two weeks. And now I feel like the dust has settled. I've rewatched it and, you know, maybe I'm ready to go back and give that person a hug and say, okay, let's move forward. But it. It didn't leave a very good taste in my mouth, this finale, mate. It was. If anything, it was worse than I was expecting. I mean, I haven't even gone into, like, the Rani being eaten and the waste of Omega. There was just so much that just didn't land for me. Anyway, I've probably waffled on long enough. What did you think? Did you love it?

Garry: Did I love it? I did not love it.

Adam: Okay, Right.

Garry: And I think more than anything, I'm going to sound like a proper parent here. Overall, because a lot of fandom was very. Was. I saw a lot of. A lot of people really frustrated and borderline angry at some of the things in it. Don't get me wrong, there was also a portion of fandom that really liked it. And fair play for me, as a. As a proper parent thing, I wasn't angry or frustrated with it. I was disappointed. Not angry, I'm just disappointed. Reason why is because I feel like they. When I say they, I probably mean Russell. Russell has completely just, just backed himself into such a massive corner with a lot of things within the story, completely unnecessarily. This, like a lot of Doctor Who finales that don't quite stick the landing. What you can see is the potential there. You can see that they, you know, this could have been an absolutely brilliant story. I guess that's a. A wishy washy thing to say. You can say that about any show. But it's very true with this. You had all the ingredients there to play with and this could have been an amazing finale. But things like that. You know, we were saying before we went on break about, are they just going to have a massive reset button in the finale? And you were like, of course they are, mate.

Adam: Yeah.

Garry: There's going to be something that happens where miraculously the Doctor's saved from somewhere and then at the end of the episode, reality is going to go back to normal. Everything's going to be fine, you know, so what would have been cool is to leave everything on a bit of a cliffhanger, which I know is difficult because things behind the scenes of the show have been a bit topsy turvy with the whole Disney thing, which we are guessing now. We've an educated guess that they've. They've dropped Doctor Who. So that was sort of up in the air. You also had. Because of that, you had the offshoot of his shoot. He gonna stick around. Like you mentioned on the Graham Norton, he was like, yeah, season three, blah, blah, blah. And then that doesn't happen. So he's obviously moved on because he's got bored of waiting and all that stuff. And then on top of that, you've got series one and two filmed almost back to back. So by the time you've gone back and realized, actually, you know, this would be cool, or we should have done that, or we could do that. It's too late. It's already done and in the can and ready to rock and roll. There's not enough money and time to go back and change anything. So they've sort of shoehorned in like the final five minutes of it all and left it on a bit of a. An open ended thing, which is not the way open ended thing that I wanted. Like, if you go back and watch the end of, say, Stranger Things Season 4, it looks like it's going to be tied up quite nicely. But then all hell breaks loose and it gets left on this amazing cliffhanger and you're like, wow, like 100% cannot wait for season five.

Adam: Yeah.

Garry: You know, whereas with Doctor Who, I think you're the same with this. It's like, well, whenever it turns up, you know, we'll watch it. But I'm not sort of chomping at the bit to see who Billy Piper's character actually is. Is she the Doctor? Is she the moment that's back to fill the gap? Because they haven't. Because they've been waiting around for this whole Disney thing. Everybody's in limbo, cast and crew, everybody. They can't obviously go into sort of casting mode because they don't know where the money's coming from. They don't know what's going on. So I think you're absolutely right, mate. I think this is. The Billy Piper thing is just a gap filler because there's nothing else they can do. You can't have. You can't have Shutey signing on a dotted line saying, right, I'm out of here. And then the regeneration scene is done. The only thing you could do is sort of cut his regeneration off halfway and then you sort of CGI it later with the new actor's face and so on.

Adam: But.

Garry: So, yeah, a lot of wasted opportunity and a lot of things that just didn't make sense to me in terms of Omega. I'd lost for words on that stuff, mate.

Adam: Yeah, that was the most disappointing bit. And I knew it was going to be disappointing as well.

Garry: Yeah. Because. And this, I think this goes back to. And we will get on to a few things that we did, like, I'm sure, but just get these sort of bits out of the way. There's like certain things within Dr. Who law that you just don't. Yeah. You just don't mess with Too much because they have a certain status within the law of the story and also within fandom and. And that kind of thing. It's a bit like. It's a bit like making Batman. Instead of having, like, you know, black cowl and cape and that sort of thing, you know, he has an old sort of dinner lady Tabard on. And then when fans question it, you're just like, oh, no, that's just, you know, just how we see Batman. It's like, no, like the cowl and the cape is like the iconic thing.

Adam: Yeah.

Garry: But when you mess with it for no reason, it's like, why'd you do that? It's a bit like Omega. It's. He was this great character from the classic years, and instead of making something of that and making him potentially the. The focus of the story in terms of being the taking over as the bad guy, it just ends up being this big bit of CG slop that we had with Sutek in the last series. Yeah, but that's. That goes back to the issue of if they hadn't filmed all this stuff back to back then, potentially you could. Because once series one had gone out and you had the finale with Sutek and then you saw that a very large portion of fandom just. Just wet themselves laughing at how ridiculous the whole Sutek thing was, then you keep it like, right, okay, that didn't land. So the idea, we've got to do this CG version, Monster of Omega. Let's revisit that. Because fandom's clearly not keen on the whole, let's turn these classic characters into just CG monsters. But you can't, because it's already been filmed and done and you've paid for the visual effects to make it. It's all there. So there's a lot of problems that. That's what I mean by you in a corner. You're in a corner because you've done all this stuff. You've then look at fan feedback and you're like, oh, crikey, I can't go back to the BBC bosses or Disney and say, can have a bit more money. Which they might do something.

Adam: They might have had to do that with the regeneration as well. And they. I feel like that the reshoots, they may have already had to say, can we have a bit more money? So, yeah, you're right. They can't go back and say again, yeah, yeah.

Garry: And then the Rani, you've got the bi generation thing for Mrs. Flood with the other, you know, the other version of The Ronnie, the. The cooler one, in my opinion, the. The one that had, again, the most potential and she just gets swallowed up. And then I think there's some rules around. I could be wrong here, mate, so please correct me, but I think there's some rules that have been created clearly out of thin air about by generations, where if you're the offshoot one from the generation, then you can go on to regenerate, whereas if you're the one that sort of was there before, you can't generate regenerate anymore.

Adam: Yeah.

Garry: So what they've done is they've now just binned off the Rani as a character that could come back and regenerate. Now we've got Mrs. Flood, who's obviously still the Rani, but she can't regenerate now.

Adam: Oh, yeah, I didn't even.

Garry: So now you've got this very cool character who you've brought back, which fans really like, but now you've essentially just condemned them to some kind of death in the future, because they can't. That's it. That's the Rani done as a character, if you follow the rules that you've set out for yourself in terms of. By generation, of course. So they've wasted Omega, they've wasted that. That iteration of the Rani, they've wasted Belinda's character in the end.

Adam: Yeah.

Garry: She just ends up defaulting to just a single mom. After everything that we had at the beginning of this series, I know where we. The mystery of why she was Monday from that episode in series one. Nope, nope. Nothing at all. So you know when in episode one, where the Doctor scans her DNA and she gets humpy with him.

Adam: Yeah.

Garry: And we have that mystery around. Oh, I've met somebody looked just like, you know, what's going on there? What's the. What's the connection? Nothing. This whole attitude that I want to say attitude. I mean this in a good way that Belinda brought to the role of the companion to push back against the Doctor, like, kind of insinuating that the previous companions had been swept up in his. Kind of in his vibe and, you know, the thrill of adventure and all that stuff. She's like, no, I just want to go home. So she pushes back and she's stronger. We get three episodes in and she's like, oh, this is. This is like the. I'm living my best life here. I get to dress up in all these things. And, Doctor, you're amazing. And I think you're amazing, and everything's great and brilliant. And then we get to the End where that strength has just slowly gone. That attitude and that sass, you know, that sassy that she had, that's gone. And now at the very end, she's just a single mum.

Adam: Yeah, so.

Garry: And don't be wrong. I'm not saying anything. Single mums.

Adam: That's not what the character started. And the potential waste of potential, you.

Garry: Know, I mean, so that's a. Yeah, sorry, mate. Yeah, that's another waste. So do you see what I'm saying? The potential was there to have some really cool things going on. But, yeah, down. Down the drain.

Adam: Yeah. I think Verada Sephu was so badly let down by Russell. I mean, this is what I don't get. We've always. In the past, we've always praised Russell for how good he is at writing and creating characters. Now he manages to tap into characteristics that we can relate to and connect to. Belinda as a character is gonna be so forgettable, mate. She's gonna be one of those companions that people say, oh, Belinda Chandra. And you're like, well, oh, yeah, her. She's not quite in dodo territory, but she's certainly down there. It's such a shame, because, like you said, and I do wonder if we may never find out, but we've heard so much about, you know, issues behind the scenes that Millie was sort of dropped after series one, and the original tension was for her to be in series two, blah, blah. I don't know if any of that's true, but it does align with how this series sort of ended. A few people have said this. It would have made much more sense if Millie had still been the companion because of the connection to space babies and Poppy. And it just didn't make sense for Belinda to be, you know, this mum at the end and with Poppy to me, anyway, and even watching it again last night when we had the flashbacks where she said, oh, I kept telling you I need to get back because my mum's got a babysit, or whatever. It. That's the thing. It was frust, I think you said earlier, frustrating watching this because nothing really made sense. And I do feel like whether those rumors have, you know, what's her name? Ruby. What's her real name? Millie. Whether those rumors are true about, you know, her being sidelined, you know, and taken off the series or whatever. There's definitely been some issues in this series because nothing. You felt like it was being rewritten. You could almost see that Russell had had to sort of do reshoot, rewrites and reshoots, and it felt Very clunky and it didn't piece together and it didn't make sense. And that's why nothing landed, because you start to think, wang on, well, why did that happen then? Why did she do that? You know, how did she know this? How? She didn't even meet Poppy. The line that really got me, mate, this is. And I'm sorry to say, you know, I used to think Russell was such a good writer, we used to praise him to the hill, but he's. He's lost it somewhere along the line. Because the bit that really showed up to me was when Ruby actually says to the Doctor, but why? Why could I remember and no one else could? And the Doctor says, don't worry about it. You know, I don't know. I have no idea. I think he says. And I think that's Russell sort of saying, yeah, I know that I haven't explained that. I'm just going to put it in and it's. And if I say I haven't explained it, then that makes it okay. And I just thought, yeah, it's just so many plot holes and threads that didn't really sort of connect. If you actually, you know, watch the series overall and. And I just want to quickly say about Omega as well, mate, I. It was so predictable. It was going to be some sort of CGI abomination, you know, it just. You could see that coming a mile off. But even so, it didn't feel anything like the character of Omega at all, did it? You know, and then to.

Garry: Not at all.

Adam: When it swallowed the Rani, that's the bit where I would have framed my popcorn at the screen. I was just like, are you kidding me? Just, you know, that's that solved. Then you can almost see Russell doing it, you know, writing it. Right, so we need to get rid of Rani. Sutek. Sorry, not Sutek. Omega eats the Rani. That's that done. Then Mrs. Flood grabs the bracelet, she's gone. And again it is. It's just like, reset, reset. That's done, that's done, you know, and when the episode wrapped up, I looked at the clock. I thought, we've still got, like, 25 minutes. And it feels like the episodes ended. So what's the rest of it? That, to me, is where it feels like, you know, all the. All the stuff's been tacked on and he's tried to sort of make it all work. And I do believe that Millie was supposed to be the companion for series two, and then perhaps Belinda was supposed to come on board for series three. I think that that, to me, sort of makes more sense in the narrative. And obviously, you know, things haven't worked out for whatever reason, and Russell's gone in and changed it, but. I don't know, it just. None of it really connected, mate. None of it really landed for me at all.

Garry: No, I. It's one of those things. Yeah, you're absolutely right. It's. It felt a bit convoluted and a bit disjointed as you went through the story. And there was a couple of. Once the episode had first gone out, obviously, I know that fandom's a bit of a. There's a sort of. A lot of knee jerk sort of things going on, but there was a couple of tweets that sort of stuck with me. I can't remember who the. Who the. Who the guy was. What's his name? I think it's Josh something. Does a lot of Doctor Who YouTube stuff.

Adam: Josh Snares.

Garry: Josh Snares. That's the guy. Yeah. And he put a tweet out that said something along the lines of, I don't think Doctor Who is aimed at me anymore.

Adam: Yeah, it feels like that.

Garry: Yeah. And that kind of resonated a little bit because I thought to myself, well, maybe if I was, you know, 20 years younger, that would make me 25. If I was 25, or if I was, you know, 18 or 19, whatever, this. This probably would have been a great episode of Doctor Who, potentially. Because I feel like. I feel like the powers that be of making decisions around these iconic, important characters I mentioned earlier, they're making decisions because it's okay. What does. What does the younger audience want to see here? And I honestly feel like that's been a bit of a driving force with some of these decisions around Sutek being a big CG monster. And now the same with Omega, I feel like, because remember when a couple of years ago when you and I were doing whatever episode it was, and we spoke about when the news broke that Disney was going to be the streaming partner.

Adam: Yeah.

Garry: And all this stuff. And then as part of that, they said that they were going to reset all the numbers. So it was going to be season one and it was going to. In an attempt for sort of more international viewers to feel like they've got a safe sort of jumping on point to get into the season. And then secondly, when we were going through season one and we were talking about viewing figures, the BBC or Russell, one of the two, came out and said, yeah, the viewing figures are down and we Expected that because of the landscape of TV and how people view it has changed and blah, blah, blah. But one thing that we're really, really happy with is the younger viewer count. So, like, the big bracket of teenagers to lower 20s, people like there that they've seen the biggest growth in those viewing figures. So I feel like the people at Disney and some other BBC execs or Bad Wolf don't know who they are. Maybe a combination of those people have said, nobody wants to see an old dude in a robe and a helmet having a conversation with the Doctor. Nobody wants to see that. What they do want to see is amazing visual effects, and they want to see a monster. Because we want to give them Star Wars. We want to give them Stranger Things. We want to give them that stuff.

Adam: Yeah.

Garry: What we don't want to give them is. So I feel like that's the. The kind of crux of why these things are happening. And the. The wasted potential of Omega, I think, is the perfect example of that. And when Josh Snares said, I don't think this show is aimed at me anymore, this all kind of resonated with me a little bit. And a couple of other people said similar things. And I thought, you know what I feel? I fear that that is potentially correct. I don't know about you, mate, but I came away from this thinking, I don't know if that's for me anymore.

Adam: Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, I know a few people said that. And it's a. Is a horrible feeling to have when you've been, you know, invested in a show for as long as we've been invested in Doctor Who. Because that is exactly how, at the minute I feel that even if there's talk at the minute of it getting a new streaming partner, even if it does, I think as long as RTD is in charge, I don't think I want to continue watching it, because, again, I don't think it's aimed at me. It's certainly not. I'm certainly not enjoying it. I mean, we've had a couple of people comment saying we've been really negative even when we've enjoyed an episode, so. Which is fair enough, you know, but that's the thing. If. Yeah, if I'm not enjoying something, why do I continue to watch it? I was having a conversation actually, with a friend about it, and I. I said, you know, I feel like if it gets another season, Russell's gonna be showrunner for another season. I feel like I'm. I'm probably not gonna watch because I just. I just don't want to. I think I've just lost faith in him as a showrunner and a writer in terms of I don't want to be watching something and just sat there like I am now, just moaning, saying, I'm not enjoying it. But I do think I. I would say that. And then when the time come, I think the curiosity will get the better of me and I'm. I'm still going to want to tune in. It's a bit of a morbid fascination, isn't it? Like, I don't. Can I actually step away from the show after all the years I've been watching it, even though I'm not enjoying it? And I think I felt a bit like that during the Jody era, but I. It wasn't quite the same as now because even though the Jody era didn't hit home with me, there were still elements I enjoyed. And I. And I think sometimes, you know, the writing, the heart was in the right place, if you know what I mean. Although I think they didn't get it right a lot of time, but, you know, there was still. There were still things to enjoy in it at the minute. It just. Every week, it's just like I'm almost got my head in my hands and I think, why am I watching this? You know, why am I putting myself through it? So, I don't know, we're such a strange place a minute, mate, but I do feel like it's not being made for us. But then I ask myself, who is it being made for? Like, that, to me, says, you've got a brand. I'm all for change and renewing it and. And freshen it up. But at the end of the day, you know, you're making Doctor Who, so you, at the core of it, you still want it to appeal to people who have been watching Doctor Who for years, you know, that's surely got to still be at the core of the show. Otherwise, who are you making it for? You may as well make a totally different program. If you're not aiming Doctor Who at Doctor Who fans, well, what's the point of calling it Doctor Who Did. I don't know if I'm quite getting the point across, but you know what I mean. Why not make a different show then? Because if you want a whole new set of fans, if you want to appeal to a whole new audience, well, you may as well make a different show, you know, if you want. If you don't want Doctor Who fans, I don't know. This doesn't make sense to me, man. That's what I'm saying. I don't know who they are making it for now.

Garry: It's weird, mate, because to follow on from that, I want to mention just a couple of minutes ago about resetting the season numbers. The whole point of doing that was to encourage new viewers to jump in to Doctor Who, but I think it was. What episode was it where we spoke about some things that were going on and my wife, he was, she was just, I'm done. I think it was, I think it was the story in the end.

Adam: No, no. Was it the well? I can't remember. I remember you saying that Nat said, oh, I've had enough of this. No, it wasn't the well. The well was a good one. I can't remember. But I remember you saying it might have been storing the engine.

Garry: Yeah, the well was, okay, it might be lucky day or soy engine, but basically my wife just said, look, I don't have a beeping clue what is going on. So for even if they're trying to make this a point for new viewers to get into the show and start watching it. So on one hand you think, okay, they're kind of gearing the show towards people who have not watched 60 plus years of Doctor Who. You just want to get into it and if you like it, then go back and check all that previous stuff, great. On the other hand, you've got new viewers who must be watching this thinking, what, you know, excuse the pun with the whole tenant thing. But they must be thinking, what? What? Like what the hell? And then on top of that, you've, you know, if you've got a viewing party going on or you're chatting to your friends and you've got older viewers, sorry, long time viewers versus brand new viewers, you've probably got them saying, oh, you wait, you wait. Reality war is going to be an absolute belter. Because Omega, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And you have fans are like, oh, sweet. You know, my, my mate who's been watching Doctor Who for his entire life has just, you know, set me on a bit of a hype train about Omega. This really, you know, popular character, this baddie from the old school days, things are gonna go down. You get that. And then you look over at your mate and he's just sort of rolling his eyes or show our eyes. And it's just so it's, it's at odds with itself. The show is kind of set itself up to be one thing. You watch it and then you think, okay, it's clearly now this thing.

Adam: Yeah.

Garry: But while it's trying to be this thing, it's also. It kind of goes round in a bit of a circle. And you think, I don't know enough. Unfortunately, this is. The finale is just an extension of that. There are things that happen and you think, okay, you want it to be a CG monster for all the cool kids, fine, but why did you do it to that particular character?

Adam: Yeah.

Garry: Like, surely to God, that particular character has earned the right to be a more. To hold more weight and to be more important in the story than just a throwaway bit of cg. That. It just makes no sense to me.

Adam: Yeah, I'm pretty sure you predicted. Because I said this when I was watching it going out live, you know, when he pulls his washing line off the clock and starts shooting Omega back into his little cave. I'm sure you said that. You said, he's gonna pull that thing off the clock. I bet you that's how he resets it. Or he did. I was just like, oh, God, it's so predictable. But that's the thing with Omega. I mean, like you said, the actual design of it, right. Quite a cool looking CGI skeleton thing, but it's not Omega. So like you said, why call it Omega? Why not just say, oh, there's this thing coming out and it, you know, looks pretty scary and whatever, but also the fact that it didn't do anything. And that is the problem with when you bring big characters back, the fan favorites, if you're gonna bring them back, you know, you can't just have, you know, they've got to do something and they don't seem to know what to do with them. You know, that's the problem. Just going back to what you're saying about the show, mate, who it's aimed at as well. I think that is the problem at the minute is that I think Doctor Who's sort of lost or forgotten its identity. It's forgotten what it is. It's trying to appeal to just about everybody, but appealing to hardly a, you know, to nobody really, is it? So that's what I mean. I think they need to just, you know, sit back, look at what Doctor Who is as a show. What do they want it to be? Stop trying to appeal to everyone. Stop trying to, you know, be everything with it and just be Doctor Who. And if people like it, they'll watch. You'll grow an audience if it's good television. But you've got to stick to your format and at the Minute, like you said, they're trying to appeal to new fans, are trying to have. Jumping on points, they're trying to throw in old monsters for the classic fans. And it's. What it's turning into is just a complete mess, you know, instead of. Actually, it's not working. I mean, you've got to sort of almost. I mean, I, you know, if it was me as showrunner, I would go back to basics, you know, get it back to being a simple show about a guy who's traveling in a police box that he can't control, that lands on planets and in different time zones and there you go. Just. Just go back to basics a bit, I think. But, you know, what do I know? But that's what I. That's what I would do, you know, I mean, just rediscover what Doctor Who is as a show instead of trying to make it into whatever it is now, you know, and like I said, you know, maybe. Maybe it's just that it is so different from what we're used to as Doctor Who that maybe it isn't being made for us anymore. Which is a shame, really.

Garry: It is a shame. Yeah. A good example that I thought of when I finished watching this episode was, you know, Journey's End and Stolen Earth. When they brought Davros back.

Adam: Yeah.

Garry: So when you see. Who was it?

Adam: Julian Bleach.

Garry: Julian Bleach as Davros, That's a really good example for me of bringing back an old school baddie, but not having to reinvent the wheel with it and trying to be. Can you imagine if they did a CG Davros?

Adam: Yeah.

Garry: And all that. So although they've tweaked the look and feel just a little bit and, you know, Julian Bleach is playing it slightly differently from. From the old school days, for the most part, it's just Davros, isn't it? From. What's it? Of the Daleks.

Adam: Genesis of the Daleks.

Garry: Genesis of the Daleks. Yeah, it's. It's basically that. And. And that was a really good example for me because when I finished watching that two parts of that finale, I thought, yeah, I'm watching Davros from Doctor Who.

Adam: Yeah.

Garry: You know that. You know, it's pretty much there with some slight nuances, but with this, it's like you're not watching anything. You're not watching any sort of coherent thing. You know, it's just a. I don't know. Omega, we're done with it.

Adam: It's in name only. Is basically, isn't it? That's what you're saying. It doesn't. You don't feel any connection to the Omega that we've seen in. In the other stories, Basically, you don't look at that and think, oh, that. Yeah, I can see Omega in that. I totally get it. Just. Just before we move on from other things being thrown in, mate. And I think we're. Like you said, we're done with Omega, but I think we were both expecting Susan in this. And I do wonder again, if this is due to the reshoots slash rewrites, that she wasn't in it, or maybe she was never intended to be in it. But I. And I'm not one for speculation or rumor, but I am siding on speculation. Rumor that I think she was supposed to be in this. I'm sure you've seen that photo that's floating around of the Doctor in a club with Belinda, which is from a scene that was never in the episode that is rumored to be the. The original ending, I believe that came from. It was like a, you know, like a German TV show or something. You know, like when you upload a YouTube video, it gives you sort of templates to use as the. You know, as the thumbnail. And I think that's what that picture was. I believe that's where it's come from. So it is genuine. So I'm fascinated now. Like what? I would just love to know what was the. The true original ending, you know, what was Russell's plans? There's clearly been stuff that has gone, you know, awry during production of this series, especially as they couldn't. They were filmed back to back. So I don't know if this stuff will ever come out. And what's worse, mate, is I feel like they're trying to cover it up. And I think it'd be much, much better if they were just honest with people. I think we've worked out a lot of it already. Just come out and say, yeah, you know, this wasn't planned. We weren't sure where the show was going. Ncuti doesn't want to hang around forever. I mean, you don't have to word it like this, obviously. I'm just saying, just come out and tell us, you know, it'd be so much better than all this. Oh, yeah. It was always the plan, darlings. You know. Yeah, I was always gonna leave and. And all that. No, you weren't. You said you were doing another series. Just be frank with us. Just tell us what's going on. But the Susan Thing, mate. I. We saw her in a different costume on the Unleashed. She was in the previous episode, the Interstellar or the episode back. So what was the point of bringing her back? I mean, I'm. We. Well, both of us have wanted to see Susan back for absolutely forever, so we were delighted that we might get to see her come back. And there is a line, I should have written it down towards the end of this episode where the Doctors, she says, oh, you'll have to settle down now, or something. And I thought there was a line that said. And I thought that that could almost lead him into going and finding Susan. You know, it could almost be like, yeah, I'm gonna go and find. I haven't got a baby. I'm gonna go and find my granddaughter. I need to reconnect, you know, I don't know. So my feeling, mate, is that Susan was supposed to be in this. I believe. I. I think she may have filmed stuff that was cut from this episode to accommodate the regeneration, which I would love to know when the Jody stuff was filmed. I want to get on to that as well, because. Was that a late addition? Did she replace Susan? I don't know. But let's talk just quickly. A, do you think Susan was meant to be in it? And B, I want to know what you saw, what you thought when you saw Jodie come through the door.

Garry: Yes, I think Susan was meant to be in it. 100%. Yeah. I feel like she was meant to be linked to Poppy in some way.

Adam: Yes.

Garry: And I think she was meant to be. She was meant to be either Susan's mum or Susan daughter, whichever way around it was. There's like a thousand rumors about that, but I think, yes, Carol Anne Ford was totally meant to be in the finale. And so I think that was cut due to the whole shooty leaving reshoots, you know, bit of a Frankenstein end in that kind of thing. And. And when I saw Jody come through the door, you know what? I wasn't too, too miffed about that, if I'm honest with you.

Adam: Had you heard the rumors she was back, or was it a surprise?

Garry: I heard, yes. Yeah, I heard the rumors, yeah. But because they were rumors, I didn't obviously pay. Didn't pay them too much mind, but I wasn't too miffed, mate, if I'm being totally honest with you, I think in. I think just enough time has elapsed from when we last saw Jody to now. Like, if she had. If this was the end of season one or if there wasn't Such a big gap with Doctor Who coming out after her era and getting this all going and whatnot, then I think that would have been slightly too soon. But I think, you know, a few years have gone by and I think she's. I wasn't too. She was like, very good. I mean, Jody, we've always said that Jodie is a great actor and she, she went back into the role of the Doctor very, very quickly and was almost like she had stopped filming yesterday. She was very good in that respect. I just wonder, like we were saying earlier, maybe if Matt Smith had come through the door, would that have got a better reaction? Obviously it wouldn't have been David Tennant, because we've been down that road a few times already. But, you know, if Matt had come back, I think I would have been. I would have lost my beep at that point. It would have been amazing. Or Capaldi, one of the two. But yeah, it wasn't too bad. It was a. As far as like shoe horned endings go, that part of it wasn't too bad. What did you think?

Adam: Well, this might surprise you, mate. I actually think it's one of the things I. One of the very few things I enjoyed in the episode. And I was surprised feeling that myself because I'm not. As long time listeners know, I'm not the biggest fan of Jody's Doctor and nothing against Jodie, I just never clicked with her incarnation of the Doctor. So when I saw her I was like, oh, no, God, Jodie. Now, like, you know, I'm already hating this episode. Nothing. Jodie turns up and actually I really liked that little scene. I really liked Jodie in it because I don't know, it's just the way she sort of strutted in and she looked very at home on that set as well. I kind of really suited her Doctor somehow, that tardis and she comes in, she's like, hello, mate. And all this sort of thing and I don't know, it's a bit like seeing sort of an old friend, but maybe one that you've sort of, you know, that gets on your nerves. After all, you can only be in it, you know, she. That's how she's always struck me as a Doctor. I like her, but I can't spend too long with her because she starts to get on my nerves, you know, I mean, but, you know, they're a friend that you like and. Yeah, no, I just thought it was a lovely scene, actually. I really, really liked it. And I thought Jodie, yeah, sort of effortlessly slipped back into being her Doctor, you know. So, yeah, I thought it was nice. I just like the fact that she sort of was there to reassure him and there was all that stuff on the screen when they're showing the old Doctor's faces. I just thought it was a nice scene. As I said, I'd sort of almost. My eyes had sort of rolled at the back of my head at this point during the episode, but when she come in, it did sort of snap me back into it. And, yeah, I. I thought it was a nice moment and a nice scene and I was surprised when I finished watching it the first time that one of the few things about it that I liked was Jodie. I thought, gosh, how times have changed, you know, she. Yeah, I just thought it was good. It was. I was, you know, surprised. Pleasantly surprised to see her, actually. More than I thought I'd be. I'd heard the rumors as well, and I kept thinking, oh, no, when she comes on, I'm going to be like, oh, God. But no, it wasn't. I just thought, oh, that was quite nice.

Garry: Yeah, same. I thought it was pretty cool.

Adam: It almost made me want to go back and reevaluate Earth. I almost felt like, have I been too harsh on her era? Maybe I should go back and rewatch it. But I don't know. I don't know if I'm quite ready for that. But, yeah, it was good. I don't know, it did feel cool, I thought, to see.

Garry: Yeah, same. And we're kind of doing this bit, Ask About Face. But what did you think to shoot his regeneration, then? Because just quickly for me, bud, on one hand, I was like, okay, I kind of. If this is a really weird sort of paradigm that my mind was in when I was watching the regeneration, because I wasn't. I was. I didn't have any. Or much feeling or emotion for the Doctor regenerating in my head. I was thinking, well, shooty. I was thinking about the actor going more than the character, which is weird. And I thought to myself, you know, fair play to shooty, because whether you like his portrayal as the Doctor or if you don't like it, he's put up with a lot of stick.

Adam: Yeah.

Garry: Since he's been the Doctor, he's as. Russell's taken some of it, but Schuti has taken a lot of criticism and a lot of backlash. He's taken it all and. And he's just kept going with that, with buckets of energy and that big smile and so on, and he kept that going Right up until the end. So it was weird. I didn't feel much of a connection to the Doctor, but I did somehow was weird as like, oh, you know, fair play, shooty. You know, you're regenerating now. So that was weird. And then the other thing is just to give you a massive slap of irony across the face. You and I have said for the last two seasons, I don't know what Murray Gold's doing, but he's a bit like Russell. It's not like, you know, the very cool stuff that he did when he was in Doctor Who before, right up until the very end. They wait until the last bloody two minutes or whatever, and he pulls out this absolutely beautiful piece of music that I do remember after the episode had finished. So they wait till, right, the very end and then lovely bit of music, which I remember. And, yeah, so it was. It was a weird regeneration for me. I don't know about you.

Adam: I can hear that music. I'm head. Yeah. So it's a nice.

Garry: Really cool.

Adam: It is. And that's what you want, isn't it? Something you think it, like you said, you can instantly recall in your head and it sticks in your brain. Yeah, that's a really nice way of putting it, mate. Actually, I. I absolutely agree with that. I didn't feel anything towards his Doctor leaving, but I. I was, I think, whilst watching that, thinking about shooting as an actor and. And like you said, just the fact that he's felt that it's time to leave already. He's only done a handful of episodes, you know, really, he's done the equivalent of one season compared to the other Doctors, hasn't he? Pretty much. Maybe a little bit more. So, yeah. That's a really interesting way of looking at it. And I absolutely agree with you. I. When I'm watching it, I wasn't thinking, oh, wow, you know, the 15th doctor's off. I was thinking, gosh, poor old Ncuti. I think he's been handed a rough. He's been dealt a rough hand is what I feel. I think when he burst onto the screen, you know, in his first proper episode, the. The Ruby Road. Was it Church on Ruby Road? The Christmas one?

Garry: Yeah.

Adam: I remember saying, he's got a lot of potential, this guy. I'm loving him already. I remember saying that. I remember saying, he has that spark to be a fantastic Doctor. I. You know, if you go back and listen to Episode, I'm sure. I remember feeling that Ncuti was going to be, you know, real sort of a good vibe from him, his Doctor. And over the course of these two seasons, the way. And I am gonna. I know a lot of people say this about Jodie's Doctor and people say, yeah, well, she wasn't very good, but blah, blah. I do feel with Ncuti, a large majority of why I have not clear this Doctor is down to the way he's been written, the material he's been given, because I definitely saw some great stuff from him in between that. But he. He's been massively let down, in my opinion, with the way they've characterized his Doctor. And so, yeah, I didn't feel much emotion seeing that Doctor moving on, you know, but I felt for Ncuti, I thought, he's probably. When he took this role, you know, had all these expectations and he probably. I'm pretty sure no matter what he says, he was not gonna leave after series two. You know, he probably thought he'd be going on and filming series three by now. So, yeah, I think that's what was going through my head when I saw it. I just thought, wow, I wonder what he was thinking filming this. Because I almost feel like, mate, with the way things have gone, if it was me, I'll be thinking, well, if it was me, I'll be thinking, things have not worked out the way I thought they would. And I. I can't wait to jump ship. I've got to get out of here. That. That's. I don't know. I don't want to talk for him, but I'd be thinking almost a sigh of relief of like. Like I've got, you know, I've got to move on from this asap, because it's not. It's not gone the way I thought it would. You know, that's what I'd be thinking. But who knows? So I was. I felt for him, is what I'm trying to get to. I felt for him more than the Doctor. So, yeah, it's a really good way of summing up.

Garry: Yes, indeed. Circling back to just a couple more bits to pick up on, then the Time Hotel. Yeah, that was another appearance and an interesting little thing, as in, you know, how's the Doctor gonna get out of this one? You know, the cliffhanger from a. From a Wish World, and you think, how's a. How's a Doctor gonna get out of this one? And then, you know, the magic door opens and. And away we go. And that was the. Who was it that opened the door?

Adam: Anita, Is it?

Garry: Is it Anita, Ben, Isn't it? That's right, yeah. So interesting. When me and the rest of the big Blue Box crew went to the Capital Cutaway event a couple of months ago, one of the guests on stage was Steph Diwali, who played Anita. And somebody had asked her about. Sorry, the guy interviewing, because she was on stage with and Susan Twisted and Gemma Redgrave. And the interviewer said, so, what you guys working on now, then? Anything you want to plug, anything that you're working on that's cool. And got to Steph. And she was like, oh, I'm actually doing a bit more television work now. I'm doing that right now as we speak. Almost finished, but I can't tell you guys what it is. But, yeah, something cool coming up. So I think this is what it was. I think she had come back and after she had done finishing the Time Hotel stuff later on, I think she had. She was doing something else as part of this reshoot stuff because there was an interaction between Anita and the Doctor that was very, oh, we're not going to do anything anymore. It's like, I won't see you again. Yeah, you know, so there was. I think they. There was a bit going on there, but she was quite cool. I mean, that episode back in season one with the Time Hotel, that was really cool. I think we rated that reasonably well. But her character was good, so that was kind of. Kind of cool to see her. Do you think we'll see the Time Hotel again?

Adam: No.

Garry: Do you reckon or that's done?

Adam: And Dusty, I don't think we did write that episode very hard. I'm trying to think that, mate. Maybe we did. But I'll tell you what, I was actually pleased to see her because so much of this. So there were so many rumors about this episode that actually came true. Billy Piper being the biggest one, the biggest shock. I still can't believe that that rumor was true. Ncuti, regenerating, Suze, all this stuff, you know, so that was one of the few things I wasn't expecting, if you know what I mean, was Anita and the Time Hotel to be part of the story. So I liked that. A few people have said, you know, having a magic door, that's. That's not actually how the Time Hotel worked. If you go back and watch the episode, which. Yeah, okay, but it doesn't bother me. I'm not. I'm never really too bothered about stuff like that. So, yeah, I thought it worked well and it was a good way getting them out of it. And it was nice to see her character back. So I think from My memory, mate. You might have enjoyed it more than I did, but one of the few things I liked about the episode was her character. I think she. She was one of the things that worked well in it. So, yeah, good to see her back. I sort of liked the flashback scenes, you know, she sort of opened the door and there was 11 playing chess. I was like, Ah. And then the third doctor with the Daleks. But then she opens the door and sees the Doctor dancing with Rogue and she looks upset as if. And she sort of does this sort of nod as if, like, oh, yeah, of course he's. Yeah, he's gay, isn't he? And I. You spent a year or whatever with him. It was supposed to be. I think you might have picked up on it, you know, unless your gay dar's really crap, you know. So I didn't get that scene, like, why she was upset seeing him dance with Rogue. So it was just like, oh, yeah. Oh, I should have realized that. Didn't get that. But yeah. Anyway, good to see her back and I, I thought it was a good way of getting him out of the cliffhanger because it just sort of got. Got him out of it straight away and straight back into the story. And I like the fact it tied it up with that particular episode because it did feel a bit filler. So at least it kind of makes it more part of the overall arc, if you like having it come back.

Garry: Yes, yeah. Yeah. I just wonder if we're going to see that time. It just seems a bit of a. Convenient. Like a nice little.

Adam: It's almost too convenient, mate. I don't think we should. Because if you start to. Because, like, if you can open doors anywhere, you can pretty much save yourself from it. I don't know, I think if it's a little bit too convenient, I don't think we should see it again, to be honest. But we might.

Garry: Yeah. Yeah. Feels like a convenient little mechanism for future writers to. To dip into if they need. Who knows.

Adam: That's what I mean. It's too convenient. It's too much of a get out clause for any, you know, you know, we're going to die, blah, blah, blah. Hang on, there's a door here. What's this? And the neat is there. You know, her performance is good as well. I know she's. She said she has a. Done much acting work, but she's actually quite natural. What do you say her name was, the actor?

Garry: Steph. Diy.

Adam: She's. She gives a nice little performance, actually. Did she kind of Just vanish. Where did she go in the episode? I'm struggling to think now. Did she just pop off in her time at our.

Garry: Well, the Doctor. It's kind of weird, isn't it, that the only way that him and the rest of unit and everybody can get their correct memories back is if she holds the door open. So she was.

Adam: Yeah.

Garry: Oh, bless her, she was a bit of a glorified doorstep for. For most of it. But I think at the end, you know, he was like, you know, you're gonna have to go now. And she's like, you know, I'm not gonna. I'm sure she says something like, I won't. This is the last time I'll see you or something.

Adam: All right, okay. Even.

Garry: But I think the Doctor just says, yeah, you've got. You've got a split.

Adam: You might be right, mate. Even watch. I mean, I only watched this last night. I can't even remember that. That's the thing, it does towards the end. It does get very disjointed, this episode, doesn't it? Like, Mel rides in on a scooter and does a big old hair flip and then does absolutely nothing. You know, completely wasted. You know, I was really looking forward to seeing Mel and the Rani together again. And there is a tiny little bit where they're like a bit of bounce back and forth, but, you know, again, what up to Mel. I just. I can't. It's as if, like, the episode just the characters just suddenly vanish and it moves on. I don't know.

Garry: Yeah, it's. It's fallen foul. A little bit of the. The problem we had with the Rise of Skywalker, where you've got so much going on, but you haven't got enough run time to. To do a satisfying conclusion to a lot of things. Oh, so Mel was wasted, mate.

Adam: Mel was wasted. Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you there. I just suddenly remembered. I do remember her leaving because I'm talking about Anita, because she says, the boss says hi, by the way.

Garry: Oh, the boss.

Adam: I've just remembered. Yeah, that's how she goes. And. And the Doctor says, oh, the boss. Eh? I'm gonna park that. That. So that getting this other sort of arc that's been thrown in since the three specials, wasn't it? The boss got first brought up. I think so. I don't know if that was something Russell was hoping to carry on over to series three, or if by the Doctor saying he's going to park that, that they can't be bothered. I don't know. But, yeah, that's how she goes, isn't it? She mentions the boss.

Garry: She does, yeah. That's another arc that will get picked up in five, six years. Yeah, that'd be something that pops up.

Adam: In the Amazon produced Doctor Who, but. But, yeah, Melmate completely wasted. Completely. Such a shame in that they. This is the problem I don't have. I don't have a lot of sympathy for rtd because he's thrown everything in the kitchen sink in there and he didn't need to do it. I don't know why he's created so much, you know, stress for himself by trying to have all these characters and give them something to do, because it doesn't, you know, he's just made a rod for his own back, isn't he, really?

Garry: Yep, yep, yep. Yeah. Let's finish up on a couple of bits. So, Poppy, the baby, this was like the crux of. Of everything, I guess. So I guess what happened is when Conrad had set up this wish world, which is. That was a cool concept in a way, where they had. That was the reason why the. Ronnie kidnapped the baby in the first place. So it was one of the. It was one of the gods, wasn't it? The wish. The God of wishes. And Conrad uses that power to. To create this sort of false reality on the world, but it kind of. It's on a loop. So, you know, it. Reality crashes down on itself and then it resets itself and it goes round around. And so that was a cool concept. And. And the way that you could see the Rani sort of trying to put the pieces in place, to move forward with that, you know, in terms of a grand plan. It was almost. I think it goes back a little bit to what we said last week. So a couple of weeks ago, where she. She was almost like the master in a lot of ways.

Adam: Yeah, yeah.

Garry: In that respect, you could see, like, the evil, you know, Bond villain thing going on and all that stuff. And. And the. The result of Conrad making this wish was that the Doctor and Belinda were a couple with a baby. And then it transpires that obviously that none of that's real. But what do you think to this concept of. Because it was quite weird to watch at first. The. Let's put Belinda and the baby into the Zero Room. The Zero Room. So that was kind of weird. And then at the end, when they're in the TARDIS and Ruby can't believe what's going on, they're folding up and passing to each other. Poppy's coat and it's getting smaller and smaller, which is like a visual way, I guess, of their memories being, you know, vanishing and getting smaller. So. And then Poppy comes back, obviously. So that's the whole reason for the regeneration. Right. The Doctor sacrifices his regeneration energy, slams it into the time vortex and then moves reality by one degree, I think it is. And by doing that, he's kind of saved the life that was created, AKA Poppy. So what did you think to this whole thing with. With Poppy, then? Because, yeah, that. That ended up being like, the main thing, if you like, the thing that the Doctor had to do. So I don't want to get into the whole. Well, really, it should have been taking down Omega and the Ronnie, that sort of thing, but it became more about, let's save the baby, save Poppy and stuff. So what do you reckon to Poppy being the main plot device in the end?

Adam: I think it's a really strange narrative choice. That's what I mean. It's just another thing thrown into that sort of. I don't know. I just don't know where Russell was going to with this episode, mate. It just seemed to have no structure to it. It was so clunky. I mean, I will say, you know, once you realize that the sort of main story arc is about Poppy, then, yeah, I really liked the scene where they were folding up her jacket and it slowly vanished. I thought that was such a lovely, you know, interesting way to show that, you know, sort of almost getting rid of the reality. I don't know. It's a really good scene, that. And also Ruby. And hats off to Millie Gibson, mate. By far the best actor in this whole thing. You know, the only one who's actually really delivering some emotion. I thought she, you know, she was. Millie was great in that scene because she looks absolutely horrified about the fact that they remember Poppy, you know, and while she's watching them fold the clothes. So I. That was where the. The story sort of finally hit home to me, was that scene. From that point onwards up until then, I really couldn't care. I really was like, what's all this about? You know? So, yeah, I think the sort of bulk of this episode did not work for me at all in terms of me being invested in anything that was going on. But from that point onwards, mate, I was kind of. Yeah, that's when the emotion comes into the scenes and I was sort of. I did sort of start to care, if you like. But I think by then it was a bit late. But, yeah, I just want to say I loved that whole scene in the TARDIS with Ruby saying to the Doctor and Belinda, Poppy. And they're like, who's Poppy? You know, that was cool. That, that was interesting. And I do wonder what, you know, if there was an original ending, which I'm pretty sure there was, I. What was the original ending? Was it just that he brought Poppy back with a regeneration energy and he didn't regenerate? I don't know. Because something's gone on there, isn't it? That's why it felt clunky. You know, it cannot be overlooked that the Doctor is touching grass in that end scene. That is so intentional. Such a little sort of middle finger to all the people that have been using that phrase that he came out with, which I don't think he's ever going to live down. But, yeah. So, yeah, I don't know, mate. The whole Poppy thing, it just seems a strange crux of an episode to me, considering only because of everything else that's been thrown in the mix that Russell could have used, like Omega the Rani, which he just is dispatches of really quickly to focus on Poppy. I don't know. But I do wonder if that's down to the reshoots, rewrites. I don't know.

Garry: It probably is, mate. Yeah.

Adam: What did you think to. Probably just gonna say. What did you think to the whole, the, the bioregeneration explanation, where the dot. You know, they say that the Time Lords are sterile now and, and that's why they buy regenerate. Is that a can of worms? Yeah, we got another hour to get.

Garry: Yeah, that is a can of worms, a little bit. I mean, there is, I'm, I'm, I'm reasonably sure there is some. There, there are some sort of Gallifreyan or Time Lord lore around that somewhere there was a, there's a story about that. I can't remember what the name of it is, but. And that would have been a better explanation for, for that stuff. But, yeah, I mean, it's, it was kind of sad in a way.

Adam: I didn't like it. I, I, I, I don't see. I'm not aware. I've heard other podcasters talk about this story where that's explained. I don't know what it is. So it seems that a lot of people don't really have an issue with it because of. Apparently this has been mentioned before in other media, but I'm just not aware of it. But when they said it, I was just like, this whole bi regeneration thing, to me does not work. Anyway, I hope when, if or when the series continues, they kind of put that to bed and just don't mention it anymore.

Garry: Yeah, I hope so, mate, because there's been a couple of things, isn't there, that have messed around with the law the last few years, starting with the time timeless child thing and by generation and on all sorts, it's. They seem to be throwing things into the. Almost reinventing the law as they go along for, for all that stuff. So, yeah, I don't know, man. I'm kind of in two minds about it. It's. I don't know, unfortunately, like some other things within the story that could potentially be big important things. They ended up being a bit throwaway. It was like, oh, okay, now that you've gone through that, what's the implications? Oh, nothing. We're just on with the story, are we? Okay, let's, let's crack on.

Adam: Yeah. And I mean, and that is the thing, actually. I agree. A lot of people have said, and Russell's even said it himself, you know, he's sort of making Doctor Who for content, for sound bites, for click bites now instead of actually, you know. So it does feel just like content rather than good stories and something, you know, that's got, I mean, rewatch ability, mate. I don't ever want to watch this episode again. I struggled to watch it a second time last night and I'll tell you, when I finished it, I was like, that's it. You know, I'm never going to revisit this episode and I. I don't even know if I revisit much of this whole last two seasons. There might be a time when I feel like watching what episodes have I enjoyed? I don't know. I know you didn't like Dot and Bubble, but weirdly, that sort of springs to mind as one. I feel like I might go back and watch Dot and Bubble. I don't know. But yeah, that's the thing. It's Doctor Who's feeling a bit shallow these days. That it is just all just like you said, wrapped up so quick. It's. It's got no substance to it and it's the re watch ability for me that's the big issue that I just feel like, yeah, I don't feel like re watching these episodes, sadly.

Garry: Yeah. Yep. Yeah, yep. And then lastly, we haven't spoken about unit. They were obviously back in the mix. They got their memories back. Yeah, everything's rocking and rolling for those guys because Anita very conveniently turned up and. And they're all good. But, yeah, in terms of unit, I mean, I can't really remember what they did.

Adam: Shouted a lot.

Garry: Shouted a lot, yeah, because in the previous episode we had that whole, you know, fandom, you know, lost their mind because Kate had, you know, allowed Conrad to be bullied a little bit. So she was very shouty in the previous episode. And then in this one, the Vlinx is back and Ruby's trying to, you know, plead. You know, this is an Android, surely, that, you know, the computer banks. Because that's when she's like, what's going on with you lot? Surely you remember? And she's pleading sort of links. And he doesn't know either. And so, yeah, UNIT are in it, of course. But I know we've got Shirley Bingham back as well and we've mentioned. We've mentioned Melanie, but, yeah, just. I don't remember them. I remember Melanie's hair changing quite.

Adam: Yeah, it does, yeah. She gets a perm somewhere between the shots.

Garry: She gets a lovely perm. So, yeah, yeah, UNIT were in it, mate.

Adam: Yeah, they were in it. That's it. And that is a. That is what worries me a little bit about the spin off, mate, is that the minute UNIT are not clicking with me at all. They're not working. They don't even feel like unit to me. So that. That's the concern I have for the spin off. But I get the feeling they'll be written a little bit more serious in that, I hope, you know.

Garry: Yeah. And obviously Conrad doesn't get killed by the Doctor. I think a few people were expecting a Doctor to cut loose and give him a few slaps again and. And be mean to him and all the rest of it. But, yeah, ultimately came down to. To Ruby giving him a bit of a. Showing some mercy there. So in a way, Ruby was acting more like the Doctor we know of, more than the Doctor has acted in the last few episodes of the season, really. She gave him a chance to. Not a chance. But she showed mercy in terms of when she made her wish to turn everything back to normal. She also wished that he would no longer be unhappy, basically, and, you know, be content and whatnot.

Adam: So, yeah, that's exactly what I was gonna say, mate. She was more like the Doctor. She was the bigger person in the situation, which is what the Doctor should be, not tasering people to death, you know. So, yes, I thought that was. That was nice because, again, it just makes me warm towards the character of Ruby, which is what I want to feel about the Doctor. But, yeah, he didn't do that. She did. So. Yeah, I'm glad she did that. I mean, a lot of people saying, oh, he should have got his greatest desserts. But no, it's about being the bigger man. It's about being the bigger person, you know, and doing the right thing, not just getting angry and lashing out. You know, you got to keep your emotions in check and actually think, well, if I do this, he'll go on to be a better person, the world will be a better place. So yeah, I, I kind of like she did that. I know a lot of people want to see Conrad gets just desserts, but I guess in an alternative limelight timeline, he did. So. Yeah, maybe.

Garry: Yeah, a couple of episodes back when the doctor was tasing that dude, I didn't hate that because I, I understood from what they were trying to do with the Doctor's character about being triggered by something and showing that side of, of emotion and so on. But fast forward to this. When I saw Ruby do that, I was like, okay, that's more typical sort of doctor behavior. So, yeah, I saw the, the contrast between the two of those. And so. And then the baby, she also wishes that the baby can no longer give the power of wish to anybody. So little, little, little Bubba becomes a normal. It's quote unquote, baby desiderium. I think.

Adam: Yeah, I think that's one. Yeah.

Garry: The now human baby goes off to live with Ruby's fam.

Adam: Yeah. Which kind of is a nice way of tying the episode up because, you know, that relates back to foundlings and, and Ruby's mum, you know, adopting and so that, you know, that all kind of works. That kind of ties up in a nice neat little bow. I don't mind that.

Garry: Yeah, samesies. Okay, before we put a score on this, which I think I know what your score is going to be, do you have anything else on your notes, dude?

Adam: No, I, I just wanted to ask you, just quickly, I. I think you said you'd heard the rumor of Billy Piper coming back. Did you believe it and were you surprised when it turned out to be true? And secondly, how would, how different would your reaction have been if it hadn't been Billy Piper but had been either the fugitive doctor or McGann's doctor? That's face turned up because that I think would have set the Internet alight. But I don't think Billy's, as I said, as much as I love, I don't think it's had quite the reaction people, you know, perhaps they were expecting, but Anyway, did you. Were you surprised to see her and would you have preferred to see Fugitive or McGann?

Garry: Your first question? I wasn't that surprised because although I took the rumens with a pinch of salt, I then immediately thought, well, as I said at the very beginning, who bloody knows? So she could bloody turn up. She probably will turn up, because Doctor Who's just bonkers in that regard at the moment. So I wasn't mega surprised, although I did see quite a few reaction videos on YouTube and Twitter and whatnot, where people were just losing their mind. They're like, what? You know, it's really funny watching those reaction videos where everyone's, like, fairly docile watching the episode and then the last 10 seconds they're losing their mind and. And whatnot. So, yeah, I wasn't hugely surprised, but then I would have 100% have lost my beep if it was McGann. If McGann had turned up. Yeah. Because I think he's. Other than that small sort of webisode they did for the 50th, I honestly feel like his Doctor's got so much potential for on screen stuff. I really do, because he's. Outside of him, just Paul McGann being a great actor and also him being from the years of Big Finish stuff, him being a fantastic Doctor, you can tell that I honestly believe that he's just more than any other actor, he's. He's earned another shot, you know, because he had the rug pulled, you know, back in the day with the TV movie. That was an attempt to sort of. Sort of green light a future Doctor Who has Paul McGann as the doctor. And because it wasn't received very well, that was his one shot done. I do believe that he's earned another shot at that.

Adam: Absolutely.

Garry: And just because he slogged it out and done so many great stories for Big Finish over the years, and he's gone to every convention, time permitting, and he's turned up and chatted with fans and pictures and all the rest of it. He's been doing that alongside all the other actors who have played on screen Doctors. So I feel like he should be given another, either as a spin off or, you know, in the show. So, yeah, 100%, mate. What about you?

Adam: I think. I think the reaction would have been a lot more positive if it had been McGann or Fugitive. I think fans have been like. Because even if it was just for another three specials, even if Russell doesn't know what he's doing yet, but as I used the word placeholder earlier. I don't know what better phrase to use, but just something to put in there until they can find their new Doctor, you know, just like a stopgap, whatever. I think if you'd have put fugitive or McGann, people would have been, oh, my God, you know, they're the new Doctor. And are they going to get even? If it's just three specials, I think we would have been excited with Billy. We don't know. Only because. Is she the Doctor? That's. That's my final question to you, mate. Is Billy the new Doctor? She's not introduced as the Doctor in the credits at the end, which everyone's picked up on, which does suggest she's probably not. My gut feeling is she's like the moment from the TARDIS that there is, if you notice a quick flashback to the TARDIS console just before she appears or something. So I think she's going to be like the moment or something like that. She's going to be something to do with the tardis, or she'll be the Doctor for maybe one special to regenerate into the new one when they found them. I don't know. I don't know. I don't think she's the Doctor, but, yeah, we'll see. But do you think she's the Doctor, mate, or do you think she's the moment?

Garry: No, yeah, I think this is a stop gap.

Adam: Yeah.

Garry: Because they haven't had enough time because the show's in limbo behind the scenes. They can't just plow ahead and start casting for a new actor because they don't know where the money's coming from to make the show anymore. So I think because the show's in limbo, they've put. They've had to inject some kind of middle stopgap thing until they get that concrete and then they can go on and see, Right, okay, who's going to be our next Doctor sort of thing. So, yeah, I don't think she's going to be the Doctor. I feel like she's going to be some weird. You know, Russell's. Like, at the minute, she could be anything, but I think she's kind of. There's another rumor as well, or theory, should I say that because Rose absorbed all of the time, the, The. The energy from the TARDIS in Parting of the Ways. Was it part of the ways?

Adam: Yeah, yeah, Part of the way, too.

Garry: Yeah, yeah, because she's absorbed all that energy and so on. It's like one of the human Faces that the TARDIS feels it can embody if it was to become a human. So this, the Billy Piper's character is actually a physical manifestation of the tardis and it uses that. That face as like, you know, because it's. It knows the face, basically.

Adam: Yeah, that's exactly what I'm thinking. Yeah.

Garry: Yeah, I think so.

Adam: Yeah, I think that's what Russell's thinking as well.

Garry: That could be interesting, bud. Alrighty, if there's nothing else on your.

Adam: Notes, dude, mate, I could go on for another hour. But I. It would just be moaning. It would just be moaning. So I'll end with a positive, shall I? I. And I'm probably very much in the minority here because I doubt very much doubt many people watching this would know. Well, they might do. But I appreciated the Ernest Borgnine line because when they said, oh, everything sees back to normal except Ernest Borgnine still alive. And I did appreciate that because I. I used to love Airwolf. I love the Black Hole. And I don't. There's something about his name. I've always loved the name Ernest Borgnine. And it's so of random. Like, it's such a random actor's name to pull out the hat. So I know it's a weird positive to end on, but I. It did make me smile, that line. So just wanted to end on one positive that I had on my notes.

Garry: You take what you.

Adam: Exactly. Yeah.

Garry: Take whatever positive you can.

Adam: I can imagine a lot of people watching, like, what? But they'll be the odd one like me that's old enough to remember him. Yeah, he was a cool, cool actor.

Garry: Agreed. Okay. For scores, I think it's me to go first. And I'm gonna give this a 5.5. I'm gonna give it a 5.5. Just because I think it's just kind of. It's that on the fence, middle of the roady sort of thing. And I hate being indifferent. So the 0.5 for me is for. Is for Millie Gibson. Yeah, as Ruby. Ultimately, I think she's been a solid character and a solid actress since she's been in it since the previous season. And, yeah, I've really enjoyed shooty, but like you said, he's been dealt a shorthand, I think, with the writing and so on. And then they just screwed Belinda's character towards the end. She's the. You know, she. Verada Sethi, she's been great as Belinda, but as the character just screwed towards the end and reduced to nothing more than a supporting cast member, really, in that in that last sort of half an hour. And so, yeah, millie's bringing that 0.5 home for us. A sort of fairly middling middle of the road watch for me, mate. What about you?

Adam: Yeah, I'm still, I don't know, open up the can of worms. I'm still confused. Belinda was living in a flat that in episode. Well, anyway, I still don't understand how that all happened and. And that storyline with Belinda. So, yeah, completely nutterly wasted. I. I'm giving this a 4 out of 10 and I think I'm being generous giving it that. To be honest with you, I was, I was around about a 2, 3 for the majority of this episode. It went up a bit because I did feel a bit of emotion when the doctor's looking at the, you know, kid and realizing it's not his. And I don't know, I felt something towards the end. You know, it was sad when he said I can't have children and all this stuff. So there was a bit towards the end and I think Millie was great. I think production wise it looked pretty good. So it's not a complete and utter disaster, but yeah, four out of ten. And as I said, I think I'm being generous with that.

Garry: It's not a complete and utter disaster.

Adam: It's a dog's dinner is what it is. Just start as I end as I started it. Said it was a dog's dinner, mate. Complete and utter mess.

Garry: Okay. Alrighty. So we obviously we will. We will be back on the show in some shape or form. If you guys have listened to the podcast for a while. A couple of months ago we put an update out to say that we're moving to a more seasonal thing. So unless any giant big news drops or we want to come back and revisit some older stories or talk about stuff, we'll probably be back now together to talk about the spin off the war between land and we see. Yeah, whenever that lands. So we'll still be back once a month to do the roundtable episodes. They're not going anywhere because they're always good. But for now, I think on that bombshell of your lowest score and I think a long, long time, potentially ever. I think we'll end it there, dude. For episode 427.

Adam: What a way to end it. Alrighty.

Garry: Thank you. Thank you so much for listening to another episode of the big blue box, ATS 427 and our review of the reality war. It was a 4 from him and a 5.5 from me. So we haven't finished on the strongest of stories unfortunately for shoot his era. However, we don't know when, we don't know how. But the show will be back we're sure at some point to explain the whole Billy Piper thing and however we move forward with Doctor Who, who knows. But we will be back then obviously talk about it and we'll be back again hopefully in a few months time to review the spin off the War between the Land and Sea. So we're back for that. And as I said, the round tables will still rock and roll as will the reviews and the articles on our website and and I'll drop in. I've got some some episodes that are going to come up in the next month or two, some interview stuff. So the big blue box is not to going going anywhere at all. But in terms of us two old fuddy duddies waffling about current stuff it will next stuff will be the spin off. Until then make sure you're following or subscribing of course to the show. It's on all the podcast platforms. You can also listen online over the website bigblueboxpodcast.co.uk and you can also read the articles and reviews there. We're on the socials too. Just do a search for the big blue box. You'll find us on there. And we've got a great Discord server which is free. Hop in there and chat doc to other who fans. Also don't forget to remember to check out my co host channel. It is of course the geeks handbag on YouTube.

Adam: The geeks handbag, YouTube and all the socials under the name the Geeks Handbag.

Garry: Indeedy Deedee. So for the last time for season two and shoot his era. That's gonna be it from us. Until next time. My name's Garry. My name's Adam and remember Ra.