Roundtable June 2025: S2 Wrap-Up and the Future of Doctor Who

Garry: Hey, hey, hey, hey, fans and welcome to the Big Blue Box Podcast. My name's Garry.

Jordan: I'm Jordan.

Matt: My name's Matt.

Maria: I'm Maria.

Harry: My name's Harry.

Garry: And welcome to the June Roundtable.

Matt: Yeehaw.

Maria: Yay.

Garry: Thank you everybody for coming back and listening to another monthly bonus episode. This is of course the roundtable. Thank you very much for hopping back in to listen to this lot and what they think of stuff to do with Doctor who. Is it the current series? Is it old stuff? Is it news? Is it character options? Vortex edition figures? Who knows? What we do know is that we haven't heard from these guys since the end of Shoot. His ear was wrapped up. So Wish World, the reality war, all done and dusted. Shoot, he's buggered off. We don't know if Doctor who's coming back next year or in five years, who knows? So we're up in limbo at the moment. But one thing that's not in limbo, as I said, it's the round table with these guys. Who are we missing? Who are we missing? Adam's not here. Adam's not. Adam hasn't jumped in on this one. So let's introduce the gang. They're all here as usual. Jordan, how are you, sir?

Jordan: I'm very good, thank you, Garry. Yeah.

Garry: Now your post. First, congratulations to Jordan, everybody. He's just wrapped up his first year at uni. Come on. Very good.

Jordan: I'm knackered, but I've enjoyed every minute of it, so it's fine. Even the 6 o' clock wake up time.

Garry: Oh yeah, because you didn't stay on, on campus, did you?

Jordan: Yeah, yeah, I was. Party pooper. I didn't fancy staying in campus of I other students. God, dear. No, thank you.

Garry: Not for me. Thank you.

Jordan: No, but no, I'm good, I'm good. I'm looking forward to this because I think this will be a, a polarizing episode. Let's think. Because I'm. I'm still not entirely sure how I feel about Wish World and the reality war. So it'll be interesting to hear what everybody else thinks because I'm still like. I don't know.

Garry: Yeah, polarizing is a good word. I think that'd be.

Jordan: I was thinking, is that the right word? But it must be the right word. It's fine.

Garry: Yeah, good. Nice one, dude. Matt, you alright, dude?

Matt: Yes, very well, thank you, Garry. Yeah, just same as Jordan. I can't wait to hear what everybody thinks about the, the finale and the, the two parter. I think it's going to be rather explosive, shall we say. But, yeah, no Doctor who. Do you know what? I've been. I've been proper old the last couple weeks and I haven't done hardly any Doctor who. That's a lie, actually. I've listened to some big finish. I've done that and what I've listened to has been very, very good. So I'm surprising, I'm. I don't normally gravitate towards the fifth Doctor, but I have delved into the Hook Light, part one and part two, the recent adventures that they've released with Sarah Sutton, Janet Fielding and Matthew Waterhouse and they're. Oh, if you haven't listened to them yet, go and do that. It's some of the best big finish that I've listened to for a while. It's, it's. Yeah, it's real sort of knock your socks off brilliance, you know. But aside from that, I've just been doing boring adult stuff. You know, I was, I've, I've got a list of chores from the, from, from the missus and I've just been piling my way through them. But I think I'm gonna have to make some sort of deal as if I do them all, I get to buy some more Doctor who stuff.

Garry: Well, that's not a bad exchange. That's not bad. That's not. No, it's a. Yeah, I was gonna say, yeah, there are worse. You could have bargained something and come out of that a lot worse. So, yes, okay. I mean, how's the Dalek come along? The build?

Matt: You know what, this, all this adult stuff that I've just. Lame adult stuff. I know, I know. I've let myself down. I've let you guys down. I, I've let the Dalek down. I haven't managed to do any.

Garry: Built mine.

Matt: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Maria: Shame on you, Matt. I've been waiting for pictures. Come on, you've got, you've got a whole thread in discord all about it. Come on.

Matt: I do. And listeners, there is some exciting developments with that. I am just working out how to do a top down camera view. Then I'm going to do some sort of cool edits, you know, techno skills being, you know, providing. I will do some cool stuff. So that's, that's to come, hopefully. I've got a few that I've already done that unfortunately are just going to be pictures, but after that I'm hoping towards maybe next week, the week after. I'm hoping to have a few in the Can. And I can put some really cool video edits on for you guys to have a look at.

Garry: Interesting, Matt, that you've currently. Okay, okay.

Matt: A big let down. Yeah.

Garry: All right, all right. That's okay. That's okay. You're allowed one as you go through the process, mate. Just get on top of it, get the camera angle sorted back on it, and then, yes, sir, we'll be forgiven. Cool. Right, that's Matt and the Dalek build. Let's come to a halt. Maria, how are you doing these days? Now that. Now that Doctor who has wrapped up in fine fashion, how are you doing?

Maria: How am I doing? Yeah, I'm good. I went. I went back to classic who recently, and I actually watched Time in the Rani. It's never been one of my favorite stories, if I'm honest, but I thought, obviously, given. Given what we've seen recently, I thought I'll go back and just kind of refresh myself on who the character is. Kind of watch Mel in her younger days, and it was good fun. I mean, I. You know, it's. It's not a bad script in some ways. I mean, it's very traditional, kind of Doctor who. Yeah. I still can't get over to Weston McCoy kind of playing the spoons on Kate O' Mara's chest. But, you know, aside from that, it was fine. You know, it was. It was good. I mean, it. It was very colorful for the day, you know, so, you know, they obviously went mad with the. The palette box. So, you know, it was fine. It was fine. So I think that was the only Doctor who thing that I've done recently. But, yeah, it was fine.

Garry: Nice. Yeah. You know, I don't mind Time in the Rani. I don't. I don't mind that one. It's. Yeah, I don't think it's one of McCoy's best, but he's. He's doing all right. Did you appreciate the blonde wig at the beginning, the. In the region?

Maria: Oh, do you know what? You forget about these things sometimes when you haven't watched the story for such a long time. I mean. I mean, it is a terrible wig. I mean, you know, I don't know where they got it from, but, you know, it definitely didn't fit him very well. I mean, they did the best that they could, I suppose, with, you know, given the fact that Colin wasn't going to come back and, you know, film his regeneration, you know, fair enough. You know, he got kind of axed from the show, so, you know, I can understand that. I Mean, it was a real shame that they. The way they did it, really. I suppose. I mean, could they have done it another way? Possibly, you know, but I suppose at least. At least they did the regeneration. It's not one of the greatest ones. I mean, my favorite has always been Peter Davison's regeneration as the fifth Doctor. I think that's always been my favorite. And. And Tom Baker's fourth Doctor has always been a, you know, one that I've kind of really liked as well. So it's not my favorite regeneration, but I suppose at least he got a regeneration, so. Yeah, it was fine. It was fine. That's all I'm going to say. It's fine. It's classic who you make, you know, you make allowances because. Yeah, they didn't. They didn't have a lot of money, did they, so. Yeah, that's true, yeah. I mean, they could have probably turned the lights down, to be honest, when they kind of. I suppose when they got into the tardis and. And the Rani says that, you know, immortal line, leave the girl, it's the man I want. You know, they could have. They could have maybe had the TARDIS in darkness, maybe they could have turned all those lights down and maybe it would have been a bit more effective. But hey ho, yeah.

Garry: Yeah. It's back in the day, wasn't it? TV that was studio based. Just. Just whack all the lights on. Yeah, all the time. Just leave them. Yep.

Maria: Yeah.

Garry: Don't.

Maria: Don't think about the electricity bill. Just put all the lights on, you know.

Garry: Yeah. Do you know what? I've not watched any thinking about it now that you've said that, I've not watched any stories, any regeneration stories in a while. Oh, yeah, Like, I've not seen Caves in a long time. What's. What's Davison's last words is it feels different this time. Is it?

Maria: Oh, yeah.

Jordan: Is it?

Maria: No, I don't think it is. Is it?

Garry: Is it?

Jordan: I think it's Andrew.

Matt: I think it is, yeah.

Garry: Okay.

Jordan: Although there's. Obviously.

Maria: Because he says the line is.

Jordan: And then the chameleon pops up.

Maria: Yeah. I don't know.

Garry: Is this Death? That's right, yeah, something like that. Crikey. I've got to go back and watch Caves. It's such a good story, that one as well. Really good. Oh, dear. Bloody Spectrox, whatever it's called. Right, Maria, I'm glad you're. You're doing okay. As well as can be expected, given the circumstances.

Maria: More on that later.

Garry: Garry and Harry, good sir, how are you?

Harry: Hello. Hi, I'm good, Garry. Yeah, not too bad. I went to a convention recently and had a great time. That was my Doctor. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, My Doctor who related thing for this month. Besides, we'll get into it later, the reality war. But yeah, it was cracking. Really good day. So I went to MCON in Nottingham. I had such a great time meeting Anita Dobson in Capital Cutaway. I had to meet her again. So yeah, we had a photo and she let me put the scarf around her which was great. And yeah, she's Anita Dobson, honestly is one of the loveliest people I've met at a convention. She is just so nice and so friendly. So, yeah, a real joy to meet her. I really recommend if you head to a convention and she's there, definitely, definitely get an auto or a photo. And yeah, and I also had my photo with Peter Davison. He was in full Doctor costume, he was in front of his TARDIS exterior. So it was a really special photo. I should probably put a photo in the Discord chat just so everyone can have a look at it. But yeah, it was great. I, so I was only going to get a photo with Peter and I was milling around the, the convention floor and you know, there are lots of like traders there like selling like figures and, and like someone was selling like some virgin new adventures and Long Barrow was going for about £200. I was like, whoa. Like the amount of money some people would spend on Long Barrow is crazy to me. But I was going to spend a bunch of money on just tat, basically. And then I thought, do you know what? I don't get this opportunity often. I'm gonna get a joint photo shoot with Peter Davison and Paul McGann in costume in front of the TARDIS. So I got another photo with, with the both of them and yeah, it's one of my favorite all time photos I think I've got at a convention. I don't normally get starstruck anymore at these things. I tend to just, you know, you know, like celebrities are just people like the rest of us, you know, So I don't, I don't tend to get starstruck. But there was something about that photo made me feel really emotional, you know, it made me feel like, oh, it's so great to be a Doctor who fan and to have moments like these, you know. So, yeah, that was lovely. So I'll probably get that framed and put it on my wall so that I can look at it while I'm working Or recording podcasts or whatever. So, yeah, that was a. That was a really brilliant day. And, yeah, it just makes me excited for Hooverville, which we've got coming up. I think myself and Maria will be there in August in Derby. So, yeah, get your tickets. And I believe we're going to be doing Capital, the Capital event next year. Got to get. Saving my pennies for that one, but that should be pretty good. So. Yeah, so that was a real highlight. That was. That was fantastic. You know, I mean, spoiler alert. There was a bit of a bad taste in my mouth from that series finale, so it was nice to kind of realize. Oh, actually, I do really love Doctor who. It was good. It was good.

Maria: I was gonna say the photo you put in the chat was Paul McGann, actually. Still looks fantastic. That man never ages. I mean, I. I met him a few years ago at the. There was an event at the Leicester Space Station. You know, I know that you've been there, Harry, and, you know, he's a fantastic ambassador for the show, as is Peter Davison as well. You know, they're fantastic ambassadors for the show and, you know, and neither of them seem to age that much, to be honest. I mean, they both still look fantastic.

Jordan: They do.

Garry: This is true.

Harry: Yeah. And they looked really dapper, like, in their costume still, you know, it was really cool. Yeah. It's always good when you get a photo of them in their costume. Absolutely. Yeah.

Garry: Awesome. Yeah, that picture was really cool with McGann and. Is it McGann and Davison, the two of them? Yes, yes. Yeah, Very cool. Right, so busy beavers, this lot with stuff. Some of it who related? Some of it not Matt. Not. Is anyone picking up the character figure?

Jordan: No.

Garry: David Tennant and the Meep.

Matt: Nah, I'll do better next month.

Garry: You do, Yeah. I think this is a character's second exclusive of the year so far this year, apparently. And, yeah, I was gonna get it. I was gonna pick it up, look pretty cool. Then I saw the price and I was like, I don't think I can. Yeah, just not sure it's worth.

Jordan: That's what I was like. 50 quid price tag.

Garry: Yeah, exactly.

Jordan: I would have been interested if it were plush. A Meep plush. But, yeah, not. Not too keen on. On a Meep figure. I don't think I was gonna say that, actually. I wanted a Fluffy. A fluffy meep.

Matt: Yeah.

Harry: Yeah, man.

Matt: It was shown, wasn't it? There was a massive meep plush shown at one of the toy fairs and I just. I hope they still plan on Releasing it at some point, because I'd love to have that. Just. It looked beautiful and so screen accurate and cuddly and, you know, you'd just love to have it in your collection.

Harry: But it'll be just like the series 10 soundtrack. It will just go into the ether. We'll never, never see the light day.

Matt: We'll see it in like, 2080 or something like that. And they'll say, oh, yeah, sorry, yeah, forgot about this one. Oh, it's in our release schedule, you know, But I don't know with this set, I think it's, it's a lovely set and it's, it's charming as well. It's, it's. They've gone the extra mile with it with all the different swappable hands and, and head for Happy Meep and. And Mad Meep, as it were. And the 14th doctor without his coat looks. Yeah, it looks, looks great. I mean, the head sculpt on the 14th Doctor, I think it's. It is what it is. I don't think they're going to get better than what they, they have. I just, I look at it and I think it's not really the 14th doctor, but it's just the price tag for me. Because you all know, and listeners are well aware that I am a sucker for merchant, real sucker for merch. And I'm constantly being told off by the better half, stop spending all our money on Doctor who toys. You're a grown man. And I'm like, yeah, I know I'm a grown man. I can buy whatever I want. And it just so happens to be Doctor who toys. But this, this is a bit much. I think 45 quid is just a bit too much for me. If it was 29.99, like, the. What was 29.99 were the, the TARDIS sets. With the Joe Martin TARDIS set. Was that. No, hang on. Was it the John pertwee with the 39 screwdriver? Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was definitely one of those sets. And, and the, the sonic screwdriver by itself and it. That was the kind of price range I think they should top out at going. I know that they've got an entirely new sculpt for the Meep, and that is costly and I get that. But at what point do you got to absorb some of that cost as a company? Because otherwise you're just going to price yourself way out of the market for, like, 80% of consumers. That's my take on it.

Garry: Yeah, there's the merch guy. In depth.

Harry: I'll tell you what I would buy if they released it, you know, in Wild Blue Yonder. The Doctor's. The Doctor's double. When he was like, my arms are too long. I'd get like one of those, like, stretchy things, like, you know. You know, those, like, stretchy men that they used to sell. I'd get, like, a stretchy fortune. Yeah, yeah, that's the one. I'd get all Stretch Armstrong. And then when you stretch it out too far, there's a little. There's a little voice box inside of it that goes, my arms are too long. That'd be great.

Garry: Oh, Harry, you've missed your calling, I think, mate.

Harry: Yeah, Character should hire me. I'm full of ideas. I'll give you all one of my ideas.

Garry: Well, the CEO of Character does listen, of course, along with every other person who's ever been involved with Doctor who listens. So, yeah, give Harry a nudge. He's got it all sorted out. So, alrighty, let's get on to the subjects that we're all here for. These guys are here for it. The listeners are here for it. We need to dive into the end of season two, the end of shoot, his run, where he's been unceremoniously picked up by his collar and thrown out into the cosmic corridor, or the cosmic alleyway where there's a dumpster on fire and other who actors just knocking around. And so you would have heard mine and Adam's thoughts on this on our episode last week. And I think on that episode, we either mentioned it on the episode or before or after we recorded something along the lines of, yeah, the writing team are going to have a field day, because I personally know of at least two of them who are not. Not feeling it, should we say. But it's a surprise for two, for the other two. So I'm literally up in the air as to what you think. So let's start off with. Because as hard as it might be for a couple of you, I do want to try and inject some kind of positive outlook on it in some way of if there's things that you guys didn't like or didn't enjoy, I'd love to sort of counterbalance it somewhat with things that you did enjoy. There must have been at least. At least one thing that you. You didn't mind you didn't enjoy. Sorry. That you enjoyed from it. So let's start off with the bad stuff first, though, and we'll. We'll circle back and come back to the positive stuff. So we all know there's negative thoughts. So who wants to jump in first with their, with their thoughts on it? You can give us your thoughts on the two parter. You can give us your thoughts on just a reality war, a combination of both and your feeling on. Shoot. His last bit of Doctor who. So he wants to jump in. Who's going to jump in?

Maria: We all went to the cinema, didn't we? We all went to cinema to see. See it. I think we all did, didn't we?

Garry: I didn't. You guys did.

Maria: Garry. Yeah, Garry, I think you were the only one sensibly didn't. Yeah, yeah, I mean, to be honest, I did. I didn't. I didn't begrudge going to the cinema to watch it because I thought, okay, it's the finale. I knew, I knew, I knew I probably wouldn't like it, but I thought, I'll go, I'll go anyway. I'll put myself through. Through watching. Oh, my God. What was the name of the first episode? Wish. What was it called? Wish World. Yeah, sorry it's that bad. Yeah. So I thought, can I put myself through watching Wish World again? And I thought, okay, I probably can because, you know, sometimes when I'm at home watching tv, I don't catch everything. And, you know, maybe, maybe I didn't understand it and it didn't make sense to me. Me, you know, I'm being, you know, I'm being. I'm being probably a bit harsh on myself in that respect. So I thought, I'll go and I'll watch it again. So I mean, I, I find the whole concept that, you know, that we've, that we've done with the whole series, this thing about gods and, you know, and obviously it was meant to be a big thing and throughout the whole series, but in all honesty, the whole gods thing kind of didn't really. Didn't really amount to much. You know, if. If we're talking about, you know, the Big Bad that was meant to be. We don't even know if we've met the Big Bad because Anita said, you know, the boss says hello, whatever that means. And I don't really care to be honest at this stage. If I'm honest. Yeah, you want me to be honest. So I don't really care. But, you know, if, if we're talking about gods and the idea that Omega is now this person that's been transformed in the underverse into a God. Yeah, I'm sorry, I just didn't buy any of it. You know, I'll be honest with you, I thought the. The final episode was terrible. That's what I said. I think you all knew my reaction. I think we all reacted immediately after we'd seen it at the cinema and it was like, what was that? You know, what has just happened? You know, I think. I don't think the episode went where I would have expected it to go. I don't think. I don't think any of the characters in it were served particularly well. I mean, we had, you know, Belinda, who was our companion for this series that started out really strong, you know, but after Lux just seemed to kind of diminish. You know, there's something about her becoming a mother that I kind of, you know, I just find it. It wasn't really very well signposted, it wasn't seeded in the series. There was nothing in her character that we met that said she wanted to be a mother. So this, this emphasis of the episode where, you know, there's this emotional heft that, you know, the whole story becomes about the existence of Poppy. You know, I just didn't buy it at all. I just thought it was the most over sentimentalized story. I just. I didn't feel any of that kind of emotional pull that I was meant to feel about it. You know, I thought the whole story was we were going to meet Omega. You know, that was the whole thing of the Rani appearing and saying, you know, this is the big badge. I think the problem was that Omega didn't appear in the episode. He should have really appeared in the cliffhanger probably between the episodes and then something should have been done with him further, but he didn't. He kind of appeared for about three minutes and then he was kind of dispatched and. And there's all this thing about the Doctor kind of blasting him back with the Vindicator, you know, and doing something that felt a bit kind of. Do you remember those Rambo films that they used to have in the 80s where Rambo had his gun and off, you know, and he'd just shoot everyone and it was kind of.

Garry: Oh, yeah.

Maria: And it was kind of a bit like that. It was kind of so strange. I mean, you know, they locked Belinda in a box for, you know, the zero box or Zero Room, whatever it was for most of the episode. She was kind of locked away with Poppy, so nothing really happened with her. So all of that last, I'd say the last half an hour of it, bar the regeneration, I suppose, was all about Poppy and, you know, and that story and I just. I just didn't feel. Feel anything with it, you know, it wasn't. It wasn't what. We were sold in some respects. And I don't think any of the characters were kind of used really well. I mean, we had Mel returning, you know, she didn't do very much. She had a few words with the Rani. I was saying to a friend, I really would have loved it if they'd had a cat fight. You know, that would have livened up the episode. You know, if the Rani and Mel had gone at it, you know, it would have at least made it a bit more exciting. But you've got everyone in unit, you've got Kate, you've got Shirley, you've got Mel, you've got Rose, who never does really very much. You've got the Vlinx, and they're all just there, you know, there's nothing happening with the characters. It's all kind of. The incidental music is coming in really loud and kind of trying to tell me how I'm meant to feel about the episode, but I'm not feeling anything with it. I really, really do. I didn't enjoy this episode at all. I mean, there's so much I could say about it. The idea of the Belinda and the Doctor having a baby together was just icky. It just. The thought of it makes me feel, ugh. It just gives me. Gives me the ick. You know, Anita, pregnant woman, she's there for 20 minutes holding a door open. You know, she was one of the most interesting characters that we had that was in the Christmas special. And she comes back and she's basically holding a door for 20 minutes. We've got Kate, who, at one point, it really made me laugh. She had a ship's wheel and she was. She was navigating this ship's wheel as the building kind of moved around. And it was kind of like. It was just so ridiculous. It kind of. I just had to laugh. You know, there was all these things going on. All the characters were kind of just so misused, I would say. You know, and Omega eating the Rani. I mean, that is unbelievable to me. I mean, the Rani is meant to be this character that's been seeded through the series. You know, obviously, we've got Anita Dobson and then, you know, we've got her counterpart. I know her name's Archie. I can't remember her surname at the moment. Rani's kind of eaten by Omega. I mean, that is just something unbelievable. I just. I just really, really didn't enjoy this episode. It was just ridiculous. Sorry. There's so much I could say about it. But yeah, I really didn't enjoy it at all. I was kind of, I think I was a bit in shock actually by the end of it, to be honest. Coming out the cinema, I really didn't enjoy it at all. And you know, there's these awful jokes that they've got, you know, the Two Ronnies, apparently, you know, it was a play on the Two Ronnies, you know, and, and Anita Dobson kind of says, well, that's good night from me. And off she disappears with the time ring. I don't know, I just, I just really, really didn't like it. I think the only, the only character that probably got a good, that was good was probably Millie Gibson. I mean, she was the only one that I thought kind of brought some episode because, you know, she's such a good actress, you know, and there were some, there were some good points. I know you're kind of saying, you know, you'll circle back around to the, to the good points. There were some good points in the episode, but not that many. You know, I kind of felt, I kind of felt bombarded. There was all this kind of stuff coming at me, all these different things happening, but I just, it just didn't make sense. It was just such a bad episode. Sorry, I'm, I'm going to let somebody else talk. Cuz I, I was so angry when I came out the cinema. I was absolutely furious. I was beyond furious really, if I'm honest. And now, you know, I had a couple of weeks to think about it, but I'm still, I'm still so angry about it. And, you know, and I said to you guys, you know, I've kind of, I've kind of left lost a lot of respect for Russell T. Davis. I mean, how can you deliver an episode as bad as that, you know, and call it a finale? I mean, I, you know, I know there was things going on behind the scenes, but even so, it's a mess. It's a mess with an episode.

Garry: Okay. Yeah, we kind of guessed that you were not happy via the WhatsApp group chat after the cinema. Yeah, not good. And as Harry said, you festered on it a little bit. It's not improved. It's not gone up in your estimation after a couple of weeks. It's just, you're still. Okay, no worries. Does anybody, the rest of you, do you share Maria's view on this or has anyone got a different, a slightly different take?

Matt: Yeah. Do you know what with this, with this two part final or finale, I'm really 50, 50 with it because on some parts it worked for me really well and I, you know what, I left the cinema. I think part and parcel was being in the cinema and I love seeing Doctor who in the cinema. I don't know anybody who doesn't if they're a Doctor who fan. Doctor who in the cinema is peak. That is, that is where you want to be. You know, the amount of Peter Davison Fifth Doctor costumes. I walked past and an amazing 14th Doctor cosplay that I actually stopped the gentleman and said, you know, brilliant, absolutely brilliant. And, you know, we had a little chat about, about Doctor who and what he thought of the episode. And it was kind of much like Maria's, to be honest. But yeah, the episode itself, yeah, just really 50, 50 I parts of it I loved, but it was overshadowed by some of the just lunatic ideas of, well, Omega for a start. You know, you just disrespected just such a amazing, amazing villain. The. And, and such a. Like the most. One of the most important Time Lords. Or is he actually a Time Lord? Or is he. He. He sacrificed himself so they could become Time Lords, wasn't it?

Garry: I think he's considered like the first Time Lord.

Matt: Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, he, he is, he's just so important and, and there's so much riding on his return and then you go and give CGI rubbish. And you knew it was coming after blooming, you know, big dog on a leash, but you didn't want it to happen. And I was, I was sat there going, don't do it, don't do it.

Garry: Don'T do it, don't do it.

Matt: And the door was opening and there was a chap next to me and we were both sort of edge of our seats and then it was called Quite Funny. As soon as the big hand came around, we both just flopped back on our seats on. It's like, oh, God, here we go. But saying that the episode as a whole kind of worked for me, especially like the two part that it. It's deeply, deeply flawed. But I came away not feeling like 100% unsatisfied. There were some lovely moments in it, I thought. Actually, I really liked Unit and quite controversially, I loved how the UNIT tower completely turned into a big death gun ray and could just. You could control it with a big wheel. I thought that was, that was unique.

Maria: Oh, man.

Matt: How, how I liked it.

Maria: How could you say that? I mean, it just defies all logic. I was Going to say all the stuff that you said about Omega, I think. I think that's what it was. I think part of it was that, you know, if you look into the history of who Omega is, he's. He was an engineer and he. He gave his life so that they could have time travel. And, you know, he. He was bitter about it, you know, because they. He thought he'd been abandoned. But there was never any stage where he was shown as this, like, as you said, a CGI gigantic monster. I think if they'd. If they'd gone a different route and maybe had somebody playing him, so there was. There was an actor that was playing Omega, it probably would have come across a little bit better, but it. It feels like they are lacking some creativity in that respect, in that they kind of went like they did with the Sutek character last season.

Matt: Yeah.

Maria: You know, they went the CGI route and it was a ridiculous. It was a ridiculous monster. You know, it wasn't. It wasn't meant to be Omega, I think. I think it was. It was just meant to be a scary monster. And the way. And the speed at which he was kind of dispatched, you know, in terms of who he is, in terms of the history of the show, and, you know, it felt disrespectful. And I think, you know, Russell T. Davis has disrespected his villains, you know, definitely. I mean, he just. He disrespected the Ronnie as well. You know, having Omega eat her. I mean, if you think about it, Omega was a man. You know, he wasn't. And. And in the Three Doctors, from what I remember, he wasn't actually. He didn't actually have a physical body. So how he became a CGI monster, I don't know, but he did. But the thing was, you know, the Rani is also a character, you know, that. That is kind of, you know, known to Doctor who fans. And, you know, he. I think Russell T. Davies could have given a bit more thought to, you know, who those characters were, because they didn't. They didn't feel very well fleshed out in the story. I think there was too much going on in that story. You know, I like the idea of the kind of Stepford Wives world, you know, that Conrad created. And that could have actually been something that was through the whole series that could have actually been over three or four episodes. But they've kind of crammed everything, including the kitchen sink in. In this. In this finale. There's just too much, too many characters, you know, and they're having to kind of get rid of them, you know, getting rid of the Rani tick, getting rid of Omega tick, you know, and it's, that's what it felt like for me watching it. I know. I'm glad you enjoy, I'm glad you enjoyed bits of it. I'm glad you did, though.

Matt: Yeah. I mean, definitely some, some positive notes though. I, I, I loved seeing the Sundays again. I just absolutely love Cherry. I think she, as, as it is the cherry on the cake, she is pinnacle. Carla's lovely and they have such, that is, that is the family dynamic that you expect from rtd and then it just sort of goes out the window after, after you leave them. So I loved all of those bits and I think Cherry was on fine form. You know, she's the world's best mum, but she's too busy playing poker and that sort of thing. The visuals looked absolutely amazing and I loved the scene where the Doctor tricked the Rani and actually copied the, the code or I guess to take control of the, what you might call it, the hover scooter thing. And then the Doctor just does this brilliant sort of fly through London and he's sort of going down to the Thames and, and just sort of scraping it and the bottom. And it looked visually stunning and you could tell, like as, as uncomfortable as it probably was to film. They made it look like he had an absolute whale of a time. He definitely didn't like. I've seen some of the stuff, like the behind the scenes things and it didn't look fun whatsoever, but, you know, that looked brilliant. Going forward, I think the idea of where Poppy is in the tardis, they're wrapping up and slowly, you know, Belinda and the Doctor are passing back and forth the, the coat and it's getting smaller visually. That, that was, that was brilliant. That brilliant idea executed really, really well. And it's, it's, it's such a change to not have it explained to you, like completely down your throat, like, oh, by the way, why is this coat getting smaller? I don't know. We should probably find that out. Well, it's probably because of this and this and this and you know, all the exposition that normally goes with it, just to have it subtly in the background as it's, you know, Millie can, Ruby can see it, but, and we can see it, but they can't see it. It was love, lovely. Really well done. I didn't like the exact scene after that, which, when they're almost kind of ganging up on Ruby, I don't know why it Was written this way. But you've got 15 almost being mean to her, sort of, you know, kind of. What's the, what's the word? Oh, it'll come to me. But, you know, when he's kind of almost gaslighting. Gaslighting. Thank you. He's gaslighting her blade, plain as day, going, you know, it's in your head, love, you know, don't, don't worry about it. And it just didn't sit right with me. It felt like some sort of thug was right in that part. And then we've got back after going back to unit and, and saying, you know, do you believe me? Can you remember all this? And it takes the entirety of unit to kind of make the Doctor listen that, that ruby's not just some, you know, gone a bit loopy, which I thought was just not great writing. But then on the flip side, Jody, Jody's entrance. Amazing. That whole scene between 15 and Jody, beautifully done. And the, the, the emotion that, that got me was when Jody was saying, you know, oh, I should say that to Yaz, and he's like, you never do. But she knows. And you can see in her face that the emotion, like brilliant, brilliant actor Jodie Whittaker. It's just, yeah, absolutely hit the nail on the head. And surprisingly so, because you just. She could. Well, she had like a day in, in the studio, probably half a day, and just hit the nail straight, straight on the head. It's easily just falling back into that character. And then probably the most controversial thing I loved was the Regen, not, not obviously who Shooty turned into. We'll get more onto that. But the actual Regen itself, the idea for the Regen, as in he's having to, you know, almost sacrifice himself, basically commit suicide to, to save this one life, which is, in a way, it's completely Doctorish. You know, you've got 10 doing exactly the same for Wilf. I'm sure there's other examples. Well, nine did it to save Rose from the, from the time vortex. And, you know, it is very Doctorish and I, I did like that. And the visuals for him summoning the regeneration energy from his hands, it looked a little bit like Hulk Smash, but it did look really cool. And I loved the glass shattering effect. I thought they've, they, they've really tried something with the different visuals in, in the story. Some like quite a lot of new out there sort of, sort of techniques that they've. They've not all of them worked, but a lot of them did. And then the actual region itself looking a bit like the. I kind of likened it to the Raknos ship when. When it all kind of went off in a big star, like a big ragnar ship. But I thought it's probably to me the best it's ever looked. The regen with. With it all sort of flowing out everywhere. It didn't help with the shooty fading away and then CG CGI ing Billy in. It didn't look very good from there. But pre that when it's, you know, full regeneration mode, it's going out everywhere, I thought that's. That looks the best it's ever looked. So yeah, I took away a lot of good stuff from these. This two parter wish world looked. Looked brilliant. It was a bit confusing and it was very sort of WandaVision. But you know, people give and take from shows all the time. It's creative license. If he. If they called it Dr. Vision or something or Dr. Belinda Vision, then maybe it's a step too far. But you know, I. I enjoyed that. There are loads of good points, but just some. Some bad points in there as well.

Garry: Some clangers.

Matt: Yeah, yeah.

Garry: No region. Yeah. Respect for that. Yeah. So there's actually quite a bit that you are. That. You liked that one. Cool. Okay. Right, where's Jordan? Jordan's left us. He's probably gone to get some gin. Harry, your thoughts please. What did you. What did you think? And then did you take away anything good from. From this?

Harry: The reality war. The reality war? More like the rubbish war. That's what I'd call it.

Garry: Oh no, look, Maria's clapping.

Harry: Okay, so was it without merit? Absolutely not. Matt, you listed some of the positive things just then. Seeing Jody again was wonderful. I think Shooty really felt like the Doctor in those final moments where he sacrifices himself to save one life kind of thing. Very doctory. Love it. The wish world concept to begin with was really intriguing. You know, lots of little nuggets of goodness, for sure. I think overall I was. I didn't find it offensively bad. I actually found it laughably bad in a lot of places. Some of my highlights, the Rani's line about drowning in a universe of breast milk. Kate Stewart's line about thinking that we're all the Doctor's children or some crazy rubbish.

Maria: Agree with you. Agree with you, Harry, on that line. That line was terrible.

Harry: It was terrible.

Matt: It was.

Harry: When she said that, I was like, what? That makes no sense at all. And Omega come like, what the. What the hell? Like for real. Like I just I just cannot get over the fact that, you know, they have this character and they decided to not essentially not bring back Omega and just bring back a giant snake with arms that goes, I am the God of time with Time Lords to feast.

Maria: Upon, blah, blah, blah.

Harry: It was absolutely stupid. And, you know, just. Just the kind of. Yeah, the Doctor and Belinda being horrible to Ruby. That. That was just. It reminded me of that bit in Joy to the World where the Doctor was being really mean to Joy. Just, you know, again, like, weirdly enjoying it like that. At least that's what I took from it. I don't know. It was. It was so strange. Strange acting and strange writing, I thought, in that particular part. And that leads into, like, the reshoots and all that kind of stuff. Like the fact that they had to change things, the fact that it was obvious, like, that's fine. The thing that I. Because, you know, stuff happens. But what I didn't like was the fact that they kind of. They lied about it. And actually there was kind of an air of. I might be reading too much into this, but there was kind. It felt a little bit condescending, like watching Doctor who Unleashed and hearing Shooty go, oh, yeah, it was always the plan to do two seasons. It's like, no, we all know it wasn't. We all know it wasn't. And like, you don't have to say, oh, yeah, like, we were uber confident that we were going to get renewed and we didn't. So, like, Shooty decided to leave because of that. You don't have to say that, but at least, like, give us a little bit of credit, you know, like, like be honest and say, oh, yeah, you know, the plan changed. You know, originally it was going to be Ruby for the whole two seasons because, let's be honest, like, it would have made far more sense for Ruby to have been Poppy's mother and it be all like, full circle because. Because of space babies, it. I feel so sorry for Belinda and I feel sorry for Vera de Sethu because, you know, that character had so much potential in the first couple of episodes. I said on the last roundtable, I loved how Belinda just took no crap and I really liked that, you know, she kind of kept the Doctor on her toes in that way, on his toes in that way. Rather, well her now, I suppose. But I. Yeah, the character did a whole 180 and this whole, like, motivation came out of nowhere for her to, you know, want to be a mother. And there's nothing necessarily wrong with that, but it just Felt like, I don't know, it just came out of nowhere. It didn't feel earned and that was really unsatisfying. And can we discuss Billy Piper now, or are we going to go. Are we going to get on to that? Of course, yeah.

Garry: No, you go for it.

Maria: Before you mention Billy, can I mention a couple of bits of dialogue from Mel that I really disliked? There was one bit where she said, she's come. She's coming to Unit and she says, I've been a housewife. And then there was another bit of dialogue where she said to the Rani, she says, we meet again. Like she's some Bond villain, you know. So there was. There was all these little kind of bits of dialogue that just kind of made me laugh. You know, like you were saying, it was laugh. Laughably bad, Harry. I kind of. I kind of felt that as well. You know, it's kind of. I was in the cinema and I'm kind of thinking, I can't believe what I'm watching. And what was interesting when I was in the cinema was, I think there was only about 25 people, there was only a couple of kids in there. And, you know, I was really hoping that, you know, it would be, you know, obviously attracting a younger generation, but I don't know.

Matt: That's mad.

Maria: Mine was fully booked anyway. Sorry, go back to Billy.

Harry: That's cool. Yeah. So Billy Piper, I mean, I sort of read rumors that she was going to be back. I didn't think they'd actually do it. The fact that they have. I mean, I suppose they want us to be excited about this. I. I just. I was just kind of. At first, I was. I went absolutely mental. I mean, in the group chat, I said some things which I can't repeat here, and I was like, this is. This is just insane. Like, why would they do this? Now the dust has settled a bit and I'm kind of like, you know what? I'm really not bothered. I'm not bothered. Like, she might be Bad Wolf the moment. She might be Rose Tyler. I'm not bothered. I don't care. I just want them to kind of wrap that up and then get on to, like, the next Doctor, have someone new and do something exciting. Because, yeah, I just think it's gimmicky and I don't particularly like it. Will I watch it anyway? Obviously I will, but I. Yeah, I just. I'm in a place now where I don't really care and, like, you know, I don't mind Doctor who being laughably bad. I Don't mind, like, watching it and having a good time, because it's a bit rubbish and I still enjoy it more than most other shows on the tv. So, like, it's not doom and gloom in that sense, but I. I would rather it just be good again. And I think, Garry, in the main episode, you hit the nail on the head by saying that Doctor who just needs to find, like, find out what it is and stick to it. Like, pick a lane and follow that lane and just like, you know, pick a tone, pick an audience and just really grow in that space. Don't try to, like, be a bit of everything and be all bells and whistles, like, just, you know, just. I think it needs a new show for that. But I don't think Russell is going to go anytime soon. But I'll still go to the cinema screenings, I'll still watch it. I'll still laugh about, you know, stupid lines about everyone being the Doctor's children or whatever, you know, like, yeah, it's not all doom and gloom, but it's in a bit of a weird place right now, I think.

Garry: Yes, I would. Yeah, it's not. It's a really difficult one because I think there's a. There's a whole bag of subjectivity to carry around with this stuff. I think there are. If you look at the social media side of things, and Twitter and Facebook and stuff, and Blue sky, all of those. There was load. There was loads of people that absolutely loved it. You know, they're absolutely gutted that shoot he's left. They really didn't want him to go. And there's plenty of people that are quite upset that he's gone. And they really loved the reality war. They absolutely loved it. And I can't wait for. So we have to bear that in mind that our opinion is that it wasn't great, didn't really stick the landing and. And wasn't cool. And our solution is like, yeah, we just need a new showrunner. And for me, personally, I agree with you. I think we. We absolutely do need a new showrunner. But, you know, there's probably listeners of this very podcast who are like, well, actually, guys, you know, I loved it. I thought it was really cool.

Harry: And more power to them, honestly, you know, like, of course, if you really enjoyed this, like, that's fantastic. And like, you know, I mean, speaking just for this podcast, this is not a place where we condemn anyone for enjoying anything or not liking anything. You know, your opinion is your opinion. And, you know, one thing that I wanted to Add is that when I went to mcon, I was chatting to somebody in the photo queue for Anita Dobson and we were talking about Doctor who, obviously. And one of the things we got onto is that she was talking about she had like nieces or nephews who watch Doctor who, who were like 4 or 5 years old and they absolutely loved Shootigatwa as the Doctor and they loved his era. And like they tuned in every single week and I was like, oh, wow, this is great. Because like, I didn't know, like as a, you know, 20 something, if, like, if I were a kid watching it now, would I enjoy it? But hearing that, you know, kids still watch Doctor who and still really enjoy it, that's really cool. Like, that warms my heart. So, like there, you know, there is still a place for it, there is still value in it. People still, still love it. And that's. And that's great. And so they're doing something right, you know.

Garry: Yeah, I mean, although I will say they are doing something right to a degree. But what I will say is on this one, it did feel like. Because I think at the end of season one, what was the finale of season one? Was it Empire of Death? The Church Empire of Death? Yeah, that one seemed to have more of a. More of a reasonably even split. When you take CGI sutech out of the equation, that seemed to have a bit more in my memory anyway, a bit more even. Whereas this one, although they are doing a few things right, as you said, there is an overwhelming like, yeah, that was crap on this, on this one, in. In both ways as well. Because normally when you go to the cinema to watch Doctor who, this, the atmosphere of being around other Doctor who fans and everything normally makes the episode perceived like it's perceived to be better because of the atmosphere and everything like that. And then when you go back and watch it at home, it's like, okay, I remember it being better in the cinema. Whereas even on this one there were people coming out the cinema. Like, that was a waste of money. Why did I go and see Doctor who? Like, Maria's absolutely livid. It was about going to.

Maria: It was, it was very subdued in the cinema, to be honest. I mean, obviously, you know, there were people, you know, it was mature people that were there, you know, people. I don't know, I'm not. I'm not sure at what the ages of people were there, but it was very subdued coming out of the cinema. Nobody was whooping, you know, because Billy Piper appeared at the end. It was kind of like, oh, well, that's. That's that, you know, let's. Let's see what happens. It was kind of like that, really, because I had a chat with a couple of people.

Harry: It's funny because everybody in my screen, like, they went absolutely crazy when Billy showed up, but it wasn't like whooping and cheering. It was like screams of absolute terror. Like, Billy Piper comes, comes up and everyone's like, oh. Like, they're absolutely terrified of her. You know, what does this show become kind of thing?

Maria: I think.

Matt: Do you know what that was? That was kind of the exact opposite in. In my cinema screening. I couldn't believe when you said there was hardly anybody in. In yours, Maria, because ours was so packed. They put on a second screen.

Maria: Wow.

Matt: And they put. Yeah, they put.

Harry: Same here.

Matt: Yeah, the one I was in. Yeah, was. Was the biggest screen that they have, and it was packed. And I'd say probably around 40% were kids, you know, like. Like under 11s and under. And I was waiting for some popcorn after getting my ticket and there was a couple of kids with their parents in front of. And they were just. They were chatting about, like, what they hoped was going to be in it, and it was magical and how much they loved Doctor who and Shooty as the Doctor and all of this stuff. And I was just sort of. I was just thinking, oh, that's brilliant like that. It's that joy that I felt when I was that age is still happening for kids these days because it's easy to forget that. Especially, you know, you see a lot of. A lot of negativity on social media and stuff towards it, and you forget that there are kids still there, that we were once currently loving the show. So, like you say, it is doing something right. And.

Maria: Yeah, I think for me, though, I think the tone of the series has been a bit more cartoonish. For this series. I. I think it's. I kind of got that impression from watching the Robot Revolution. It. It feels like it was a bit Disneyfied, you know, it was kind of. Maybe. Maybe it was going for a younger demographic. You know, it's obviously not maybe going for adults. Maybe it is going for those younger kids, you know, I think it probably was, you know, so.

Garry: I think so. Yeah.

Maria: You know, because it's. It's very. I don't know, it did feel very kind of slick in a lot of ways. And. And, you know, and I mean, what I, you know, like I've said before, I think I didn't like the Gods theme, that they kind of went down really, because I don't, I don't think that kind of paid off in terms of the finale because, you know, the God, the gods thing didn't really amount to much. So, you know, it'd be interesting to see what happens going forward because I'm assuming, Assuming that the deal with Disney is done now and, you know, and if they're looking for somebody new, it's hopefully we'll go in a different direction. I mean, you know, it sounds like RTD is going to stay with it. And that worries me, to be honest, because I don't think he needs to be writing the stories. You know, if he's going to be the showrunner, then it. That's a different type of role. But I think as a writer, I, you know, I don't think all the ideas that he's tried have landed really. You know, not for me anyway. They haven't landed. I really hope we do get a new creative team, you know, if it does come back. It feels like it is on hiatus at the moment, obviously, you know, in terms of the main series, so I guess we'll just have to see. But I really want to see. I really want to see some, Some proper sci fi in it. And, you know, I don't want all this fantasy, you know, because there was a lot of assumptions, you know, in terms of fantasy. You know, things are kind of waved away, you know, you know, like the Rani, for instance, you know, kissing the baby and, you know, the mother that gave birth to the baby becomes flowers and the children were ducks and all that, you know, all of that kind of stuff. I just don't want all of that. I want, I want. I want science fiction, you know, I want science fiction concepts. You know, they. And I want them to go out into space a lot more as well. You know, I, I don't think being on Earth is actually, you know, really, really. You don't need that. I think you need to be out in space and going to different places, different planets.

Garry: You want Blake's 7, don't you?

Maria: I do, yeah. I want Blake's 7. Really? That's. Yeah, it's true.

Garry: Insert some interesting points.

Harry: Federation Strike now.

Garry: Yeah, you make some good points with, with, with that stuff. I, I mentioned that on the episode that I read some tweets after the reality all went out and a few people were saying they've enjoyed Doctor who for years and years and. But they're just not sure. They're not sure exactly who the show is aimed at at the moment. They're not sure. If it's made for me. If it's made for. And that's not from a selfish point of view. It's not like, you know, I want you to make everything for me and nobody else. It's not about that. It's just like I felt exactly the same after the episode. I felt a bit like, where does, where do I slot into, you know, who they're targeting the show at, at the moment? Is it because they could have done. I mean, I think the number one reason for me why they did the big CG slop just with Sutek and now with, with, with Omega, is because that's what the cool kids want to see, you know, because you've got this generation that have grown up watching, you know, dragons in Game of Thrones and the Mind Flayer in Stranger Things and all this stuff. They don't want to see you, Doctor. They don't want to see a guy in a, in a robe, in a dressing gown, you know, being Shakespearean. And they, they just. Kids don't. That's not for them. It's, it's not. That's not the thing, unfortunately.

Maria: But Russell, Russell said to us when Shutti came in, he said, it's going to go new places, it's going to be a joy ride, you know, and all he's done is he's kind of picked from the history of the show. As for his villains, I mean, you know, go and create some new villains, you know, fine. If you want a great big CGI monster, don't call it Omega. Oh, and there was that thing with Omega and Omega and which way you kind of say it? I don't know, I'm getting confused now. But yeah, it is Omega, I think. No, it is, isn't it?

Matt: Omega.

Maria: Omega.

Matt: Omega.

Maria: Omega, yeah, Omega. Sorry, Omega.

Matt: It's the Omega.

Garry: It's definitely not Omega, that's for sure. I don't know what people's problem is. I mean, when Moffbag was in charge, he created brand new Daleks. What's the problem? You had like the bright yellow one, the bright blue one, the red.

Harry: I loved the yellow one.

Garry: All it takes is a bit of creative thought.

Harry: I loved it. They were great.

Garry: Just needed a bit of creative thought. That's all. That's all he had to do was bring back maybe Cybermen with like, you know, bright purple, fizzing, glowing like Avengers style armor and everyone would have been happy.

Maria: If you think about, you see that though Moffat created loads of monsters, though he did create loads of new ones. You know, we did angels, the Vashta Narada, the silence.

Garry: Oh, yes.

Matt: You know, the, the flesh. You know, all of those.

Maria: Yeah. He created so many. That's what we need. If you're going to have more monsters, you know, create new ones. You don't need to pillage. I'm gonna say that word and I will say that word. You don't need to pillage the history of the show. Just leave it in the past. You know, if we're gonna go forwards, then, you know, don't. Don't keep picking up Omega and Sutech.

Matt: He didn't.

Maria: I was really careful.

Matt: Make something out of bogeys either.

Garry: Yeah. The problem we've got now is that they. They've now removed any kind of opportunity to. To give Omega a decent story in the future, because he's now. He's now obliterated. He's gone.

Maria: Can I mention something that I thought. I didn't. I didn't remember earlier, but was really. I thought was. Was something that they shouldn't have done, which was they've made the Time Lord sterile. And that was the explanation for the bi generation.

Matt: Definitely.

Maria: I'm sorry, I don't. I don't buy all of that. It's kind of. Again, it's this kind of, you know, it. Because. Oh, I don't know, that just irritated me so much. I mean, I. You know, if, again, it's kind of picking at that history and kind of, you know, giving it a new slant. And I'm. And I was thinking in my head, well, when. When did they do this? Was it. Was it when the Mark before the Master, you know, destroyed Gallifrey? Was it during the Tour Time War? You know, when did all of this happen? You know, suddenly they're sterile, that means they can't come back. You know, it's like he. It's like. It's like he's, you know, it's like he purposely kind of, you know, trying to destroy some of that history. You know, don't pick at the history. Go forward. Don't pick at the Time Lords. You know, I, I would have quite liked to see them come back, but, you know, he's obviously. Stop that now through that. And I, I really hated that as an explanation for. By generation. It's a. It's weak. Pathetic. Sorry. It is.

Garry: Do you know what? We're so picky as who fans. You know, there's. I remember when the 50th landed and everybody lost their mind because it was like, oh, why. Why haven't you gone back into Doctor who history and. And brought us all like the classic stuff and there's no. There's no appearance by the classic Doctors or any classic companions. Why don't you go back into whose history there's so much there. And then fast forward to now. We're like, why you, why are you doing that? Just look forward, just keep moving forward. We're very, very picky.

Matt: It has to be a balance, you.

Maria: Know, you know what it was when Chibnall was in charge. Okay, he had his own ideas about the show, but at least he kept the classic villains looking like they were classic villains. Whereas I think RTD has kind of reimagined Sutek. He's reimagined Omega. You know, the Rani doesn't seem very Rani. Like, I mean, you know, where was the science in her whole plan? It was all kind of fantasy and fairy dust and, you know, she was the master, basically. Yeah, exactly. And I really don't like that, you know, if we're going to bring back these characters, you know, give them the respect, you know, go into the history, you know, I love. I love Mark of the Rani, you know, where you had Kate o' Mara actually experimenting in human history, you know, and she said, I've been there, I've been in. I've been meddling in human history for a long time, you know, so why is the Rani now relying on fantasy, you know, and the Doctor's dao and all this kind of stuff and the Doctor's doubt? I mean, you know, please, you know, I mean, why bother creating the wish world at all? Why do you need the Doctor's doubt, you know, to break it open? I mean, it just doesn't make sense. I'm sorry if I. If you examine it too closely, it doesn't make sense. Can I go on to some good stuff that I did like, though? Because I. I feel like I've been really negative and I. And I don't want to kind of leave it like that. I did actually make some notes of some good stuff. Stuff.

Garry: Rattle them off. You've got one. One minute. Rattle them through.

Maria: I will rattle through them. So Ruby's interaction with Conrad, where she talked about what they had was real. And the fact that she was kind of quite merciful with him, I liked that interaction. The only problem was it was cut in between all the action sequences with units. So, you know, every time you wanted to kind of feel something for them, it. It kind of cut away from that. But I really enjoyed that scene, their interaction together. The section which Matt mentioned where Poppy's coat got smaller and smaller and Ruby was watching that, that was kind of. That kind of hit me because I kind of. I kind of realized what was going on and. And that was quite sad. And then the last bit was when the thirteenth Doctor and Shutti's Doctor kind of met in the Tardis and Jody was actually probably more of a Doctor than Shuty was. I felt like she kind of dwarfed him in some ways in terms of how Doctorish she was. He felt like. It felt like the student was watching. Watching the Doctor. So that's my one minute.

Garry: Oh, wow. So you did have a couple of things then.

Maria: I did a couple of bits.

Garry: Not too bad, right?

Maria: I did.

Garry: Okay, cool. Right, before we wrap up, I'm just going to give you Jordan's because Jordan's phone has died on him. So I just want to give you Jordan's. He's. He's put it in a discord quickly. And then I want to finish up by asking each of you a quick question. So Jordan says a 7 out of 10 for him. He says, I liked it, but it wasn't my favorite. Russell seems have lost the knack to write science fiction now. The emotional stuff in the episode was well written and I really like the bit where the coat gets smaller and smaller, but the science fiction stuff just wasn't handled well. And that tomb door closing after Omega has to be the slowest closing door in all of history. He makes a good point, does our Jordan. So thank you. Jordan gives it a seven, apparently. So, yeah, I think Jordan's more kind of liked it, but there was just a few bits that really didn't stick the landing in terms of the slight Maria saying the science fiction aspect of it didn't quite land. Okay, so I've got a question for each of you and just a quick answer from you before we wrap this up. But before we get to the question, just very quickly, Matt, the reality war. Out of ten.

Matt: Seven and a half.

Garry: andahalf. Harry?

Jordan: Let's go with four. Four out of ten.

Garry: Four. Okay, Maria. Out of ten. The reality.

Maria: Two out of ten. And that's. And that's purely for Ruby's. Ruby's appearance in the story. No, can't go. Can't go any higher than that.

Garry: Crikey. Okay, wow. So on that chirpy note, we're gonna finish up with a question and it's to all three of you. Let's go with Harry first. And it's a choice. Would you rather have Would you rather have the show come back now with Russell T. Davis and everybody just resuming service? If there was announcement that went out tonight that said this has all been a ruse, we've actually been filming season three with a new Doctor and it lands later this year. Would you be happy with that or would you rather a break for five years and the show come back with a complete reset? New showrunner, new everything, and completely new, as in, like not even consider 60 years worth of storytelling? Absolutely brand new. Hard reset. Out of those two, what would you prefer?

Harry: Oh, that's. That's a tough choice because of the hard reset thing.

Matt: Oh.

Harry: I think I probably have to go for the hard reset though, at this stage, I think. Oh, okay, yeah, I think, yeah, if those were the only two choices. Because I think Doctor who's a bit of a mess right now, if I'm being honest. And they can always. If they rebooted it, started from scratch, they could always repcon it and say that, you know, all of the previous stuff was actually canon and then it will all be all right. So, yeah, let's go, let's go with that.

Garry: The hard reset. Okay, same question to Matt. What would you prefer?

Matt: No, I couldn't do the hard reset. I'd have to go with option one. Although don't quote me on this because it's probably absolute rubbish. But there was something I saw which I really liked. The. The Christmas special. That is probably not going to happen. Moffat. I'm sorry, sorry. Moffat was going to come in and write it and sort of bridge the gap and then potentially a new showrunner coming in its place. It's probably absolute rubbish, but I think if anybody's got a chance at some decent writing at this point, it needs to be taken probably out of RTD's hand. I think he's kind of lost it a bit and give it to the. Moffat to try and settle the. Settle the waves a bit and then go forward from there. But yeah, no, I couldn't do the hard reset. You can't do that to Hartnell.

Garry: Yeah, the moth bag. He's absolutely loving life at the minute. You know when he was like, oh, yeah, I remember the season, sorry, the series where it was called back then, the series six, Series seven. Hatred that you held at me. Now look. Now look, you can't wait for me to come back and sort it all out. Maria, what would you prefer?

Maria: Well, I'll be honest with you, I feel quite disillusioned after what we've seen the last couple of years. So even though five years is quite a time, I would have to say a reset. I would. I can't. I don't know what I'm going to do if Russell T. Davis is coming back for a third and a fourth series that he said he's written. I'm, you know, I'm completely disillusioned if I'm honest with the show. I am. I, you know, I don't want to watch. I don't want to watch any of it at the moment, the new series. So I would say hard reset with a new team, fresh creative direction. If it doesn't refer to the 60 years, that's fine. Just do a reset back how it was. Just a man in a Time Lord, I suppose, in a box. Traveling. Traveling the universe.

Garry: Yeah, gotcha. I see two very, very surprising answers there.

Matt: What would you do?

Garry: Really surprising. What would I do? I would opt for the reset at this point. Yeah. If that question was put to me a couple of years ago, I probably would said no. But, yeah, I think the more that, the more that people like chibnall and now RTD version 2 just mess with the whole deep lore of Time Lords and Gallifrey and timeless children, and we just seem to be, like, writing ourselves into bigger corners and we don't realize. We don't realize how big of a corner we're in right now. It's like 10 miles away in the distance. There's like a little brick wall, it looks like, and it just. Oh, don't worry. When we get that, we'll just hurdle over it. But when we get there, it's like the size of, like, you know, the Great Wall of China, and you can't. You can't get over it. And so, yeah, with all these. Yeah, I think it's just been messed around.

Maria: Yeah.

Garry: Just a tad too much now. So God help the next showrunner who comes in after Russell T. Davis, because they will have to write themselves in such a narrow capacity because they probably want to be like, oh, it would be great if the Doctor went off and did that. But you've got. Yo, yo, quick word. You can't do that because, you know, in. In season 12, the doctor said very clearly that Time Lords don't do that. So back to the drawing. It's just so confined.

Maria: I think in my head, Canon, Garry. I think that there's a group of Time Lords that escaped Gallifrey during the Time War. So I think in my head, canon, this is my personal headspace. I think, you know, a restart would I Think be a really good idea at this stage. Obviously, five years, as I say, is quite a distance, but I think it gives time for the dust to settle because I honestly don't know how we go forward. Yeah. Billie Piper, and there's no disrespect to her as an actress. She, you know, she. I can't see her being the Doctor. You know, she may be Rose, but, you know, Russell T. Russell T. Davis has written himself into a corner with putting her back in the show again. And I don't know how you come out of that and kind of move forward. I think the show has. It's been the last 20 years. They've messed around with a lot of the history of the show. You know, there's been all the issue led stories that we've had the last couple of years. It just. It just all needs to die down. You know, I would be so disenchanted if a new series was coming very soon with RTD back at the helm. And, you know, I'm sure, you know, I'm sure he wants to kind of hang on in there because he thinks he's protecting it. But, you know, we need. We need fresh people in the show. We need. You know, you saw the impact of some of those stories when other people were writing. Writing them, you know, and, you know, it's. He can't write anymore for the show. You know, he's not. He's not got it in him anymore. Sorry.

Garry: Yeah, no, that's fair. Here's a cool reset idea for you. Oh, at least I've got some animated here. Yeah, here's. Here's a cool reset idea.

Harry: That's exactly what we needed.

Garry: Five years. Five years time. It's not a reset, but the camera pans round and it's the. It's Paul McGann's Tardis interior. And there's McCoy. There's McCoy asleep in his chair with the record player on. And everything that we've witnessed from the episode rose up until now has been an elaborate dream in the seventh Doctor's head. And he's woken up. A Dallas.

Matt: Yeah, he's woken up, he's going. He's going, time, time, time.

Garry: And he's woken up and he's like, crikey, what a dream that was. I've dreamt of these new Doctors. I've dreamt of all these things. And then. Yeah, and then something happens to him. And then we regen. And then McGann comes back and he's the next Doctor and he finally gets a Decent shot at his own TV series. So yeah, everything was a dream basically from 2005.

Matt: Do that.

Maria: Maybe that's where they. Maybe that's the way they should have gone with the. Instead of the war between the land and the sea, maybe they should have had a Paul McGann spin off. I mean, you know, we know that there are classic doctors out there somewhere, you know and they. And they interact and you know, they could have, they could have done a five part series for him. I think he deserves it, to be honest.

Matt: You know, there's no maybe about it. McGann deserves to be the 16th doctor like this. I wouldn't cast anybody else. He's, he's. He just. He needs to be in it like that would. If they want to sort viewing figures out, that's what they need to do. RTD know you listen like take away all the magic crap and just listen. Get Paul McGann back.

Garry: Yeah, I mean, yeah, that's it. That's done.

Matt: There you go.

Garry: That's.

Harry: That's the poor Joe Martin wouldn't mind that either.

Garry: Alrighty. Or Joe Martin. Yeah. I mean, yeah, that would be cool as well because there's probably. Because she predates Hartnell. Right. There's probably an absolute ton of adventures that she's been on that would be interesting to see. Who knows?

Matt: Who knows? Just quickly with. When you say pre Hartnell, did they not confirm that she wasn't with the doctor's faces before the regen and it goes through from Hartnell to 14 but after 13 comes fugitive.

Harry: That's a whole can of worms.

Garry: I think that was just. I think that was just for viewers benefit in terms of like the doctors coming through roughly and release order. I don't think that was a chronological.

Matt: Just another bit of thing. Poor writing.

Garry: Yeah. Alrighty. I think we're gonna wrap their dudes. Let's. Let's do it there for this very enlightening and interesting June Round table. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much listener for joining us once more for the monthly bonus episode. That is of course the round table. It's been really honestly interesting to get these guys thoughts. The couple of you I thought were gonna get. I knew Maria was gonna destroy the whole thing but there was a couple of you I thought would like it. I thought Harry would like it a bit more. Didn't. I thought Matt would dislike it a bit more. But like. So, yeah, it's all good and good times. As I said. Jordan had to bail on us but he gave it a 7 out of 10. So I think we're all kind of sort of interested to see where the show goes from here on. As Maria said, we're in a bit of a hiatus situation at the moment. Disney looks like it's going to bail out another streaming partner, perhaps, or we're going to default back to BBC Studios doing the thing. Who knows? But we'll be here to talk about Doctor who, I'm sure, for the foreseeable future and all of that stuff. Make sure you are following and subscribing to this podcast on your fave podcast app so you don't miss a notification when these episodes drop. And you can also listen over on the website, which is bigblueboxpodcast.co.uk and you can also read the reviews and articles from this lot over on the website as well. And there's also links to the social channels. Go and chat with us there. And you can hop into the Discord server, which is another place to hang out with us and chat lots of Doctor who. Okay, until next month for the July roundtable. God knows what we're talking about on that one. My name's Garry.

Matt: My name's Matt.

Maria: Sorry, Matt. My name's Maria.

Harry: My name's Harry.

Maria: Sorry about that, guys.

Garry: We will see you next time. Until then, remember Lonzi.

Maria: That was good therapy.