Roundtable September 2025: Whooverville 16 Recap and a Look Back at Paradise Towers

Garry: Hey, hey, hey. Who fans, and welcome to the Big Blue Box podcast. My name's Garry.

Matt: My name's Matt.

Harry: My name's Harry.

Garry: And welcome to the September Roundtable.

Matt: Cowabunga Roundtable.

Harry: More like a triangular table this time around with it just being three of us.

Garry: Yeah. The virtual triangle table. Does it have the same ring?

Harry: No, no, it doesn't. Quite.

Garry: Not sure.

Matt: It's a nice triangle of love.

Garry: Oh.

Matt: Oh.

Garry: Well, it's been a minute. Who fans, thank you very much for joining us once again for a roundtable. I don't think we've done one for the last two months. I could be wrong, but I think the last one was July, June, something like that. So we are back to talk about Doctor Who, of course. We've got a rundown on the recent event that Harry and I attended with some of the other Big Blue Box crew over in Derby. That was Whooverville 16 that we intended. We will give you a lowdown and a quick chat and review on that stuff. And then we thought we'd do something different. Normally with the roundtable, we. We pluck a theme out the air and we. We talk about that for a little while and we get everybody's opinions, etc. This time we thought that we would dive into some stories that these guys haven't seen incredibly before. It was. Okay. I think one of us threw it in Discord ages ago and said, just confirming, we've all seen every story of Doctor Who, right? There isn't a one, there isn't a gap. And miraculously, these guys were like, well, I haven't seen this one and I haven't seen that one. And I was like, this has got to stop. This is no good. Big Blue Box listener. So I think, Yeah, I can't remember exactly. As usual, the memory is a bit fuzzy, but I think we just did a very quick. Okay. It seems like this few episodes, these few episodes are the most common ones that people haven't seen. And guys, which one are we going to talk about this week in a bit of a retrospective? Come on, which one is it? Come on.

Harry: Paradise Towers.

Garry: Paradise Towers indeed.

Harry: Was it Paradise?

Garry: Yeah. As I said, quite incredibly or incredulously? I'm not sure. These guys have never seen Paradise Towers before, having to watch it for this review. So we'll get onto that in a bit. It's only going to be myself, Matt and Harry on this one. Jordan's busy, we think Maria's not feeling too hot. She's not been well, bless her, the last few days. A Bit poorly. So I think she's going to sit this one out. So it's the, the company of the three around the triangle. It's going to be the order, the order of the evening. So as always, who fans, like I said, thank you very much for listening to another roundtable. Apologies that it's been a minute since the last one, but we are, we're all behind the scenes, don't worry. All behind the scenes in our Discord and WhatsApp group, like, chatting away, like, yeah, we need to do the round table, we need to talk about this, think about that. So it's on our minds all the time, but alas, you know, busy lives and busy things to do before we get cracking. Uh, as always, make sure you are following or subscribing to the big blue box. That way you won't miss episodes when they go out. Especially. I know it hasn't been a couple of months, but normally once a month we'll do the roundtable, we'll get this lot together and we'll talk about all things Doctor Who, so you won't miss those. You can also read the articles that these guys do. They're over on the website bigblueboxpodcast.co.uk check out all of the reviews and articles these guys do. Big finish reviews, event roundups, merchandise reviews on spot, like loads of cool things, editorials. Go and check all that stuff out and there are links there to go off to the social channels as well. Or just do a search of the big blue box. You'll find us on there. Come and connect with us, chat Doctor Who throughout the week and throughout the month between episodes. And we also have a very cool free Discord server. So hop in there, chat Doctor Who with lots of other very cool who fans. And in the quiet times that we're kind of going through at the moment with Doctor Who, there'll be lots to talk about and other things. So get stuck into all of that stuff before we get cracking. I've mentioned just then it has been quite quiet on the news front for Doctor Who in general, etc. But have you guys been up too much? Doctor Who, Harry? Not including Whooverville, but yeah. Harry, have you been up to much who, lady? Have you been.

Harry: Buddy, apart from Whooverville, that there hasn't been a huge amount. It's been a busy old, busy old summer with work and life and all the rest of it. I, yeah, you know, been watching the odd episode here and there topically. Been watching a lot of McCoy. So I actually, um, Recently I watched Delta and the Bannerman for the first time in Delta and the Bannerman is funny. So funny. It's such a brilliant story for, I guess you could say, reasons. And. Oh, Oh, I completely forgot Peterborough. I went to Peterborough to the Adventures in Time and Space. Unofficial Doctor Who exhibition. Yeah, I wrote an article on it. Go and have a read, Listener. But yeah, that was fantastic. That was a. That was a brilliant birthday day out. That was. Yeah. If. If any of you get the chance to go along before, think the start of November. I'm going to be going again because I loved it there. And they've rotated a few of the props as well. Yeah, I just love a Doctor Who exhibition. I. I'm really in my element when I'm either at a convention or I'm at an exhibition, one or the other. It's, you know, it's a lovely. It's a lovely treat rather than actually, you know, watching the show an awful lot because, you know, life and busyness. But yeah, you know. Oh, and of course, we've been treated to the 9th doctor and the 13th doctor on big Finish. And I've listened to the first one of both of those and we've written reviews on those and they were. They were great. I. I've yet to listen to episode two of Jodie Whittaker, but I'm looking forward to. Forward to listening to that and also reading Matt's review here coming up. So. Yeah, so, you know, I've been doing bits. Yeah. Been all right?

Garry: Yeah, yeah, been doing bits. Been doing things. Nice one, dude. And Matt, who is our resident reviewer slash merch guy, slash all round good guy. You're looking well at the moment, dude. You've been. Thank you. He's been hitting the gym and whatnot. He's looking very good. Hello.

Matt: Thank you very much. More of that, please. I'll just spend the entire diary of a time of the review being complimented. It's lovely. But, yeah, no, thank you, mate. I'll talk to who I've been up to. I was thinking about it and yes, I say with, like Harry was saying, we've. We've been treated to the 9th doctor and the 13th doctor back on audio format. Obviously the 9th doctor was. Was here for a while previously, but back with Rose and we've been. We've been reviewing those and yeah, gosh, it's just. It's a breath of fresh air to listen to both of those each for individual reasons and I think especially I'm so excited to see what Big Finish do with Jodie's Doctor and give her the stories and the arc that she deserves. That I just. Yeah, I didn't. I wish she had on screen more than what she did sort of thing. But apart from that. Oh, actually I did do something rather Doctor Who related. I had a birthday trip to Cardiff back along. It was back in August, so I've almost let it slip my mind, but I had a birthday trip to Cardiff to go to a number of Doctor Who locations which. Some obscure locations I wanted to. It will be coming up in a future article of. Of Cardiff and. And the Doctor Who locations you can go to and experience. So I won't reveal all. But yes, some of them included a nice trip to Leadworth, which is beautiful. Obviously I couldn't go to Cardiff without going to Sarah Jane's house. The best companion, the best spin off and I just love that house. If that house ever comes up for sale, I am just gonna beg, beg them to sell it to me. Not that I could afford it, it's huge. But it is, it is. Yeah, it's gorgeous. And yeah, so had an absolute whale of a time there. I love Cardiff. You get the sense that you just. As soon as you come across the Seven Bridge and you. Coming into Cardiff, you get a sense that you're becoming part of Doctor Who. You're entering that world, you look around and you're like, oh, I know, I've seen that and I've seen that and you just get this sense. Maybe it's just the Whovian in me going a bit mad. But yeah, I just, I can't get enough of Cardiff. And like I say, an article for that will be coming out soon with some. With some pretty cool photos I managed to grab. So, yeah, Dr. Who wise, I think that's pretty much it.

Garry: Pretty much. Oh, how's the. The Dalek build coming on? Have you paused that for a bit?

Matt: Paused that for a bit? I know we are currently sort of redoing parts of the house, so I've got nowhere to do it currently. I'm. I'm. I'm in my little officey room currently, which there's so much stuff around me, I feel like if I move something's going to fall over. So it's kind of it. I've got some work to do and then I've got. Because I've got like, obviously I've stopped doing it, but they haven't stopped making it. So I've got like three or four boxes down there that I've just got to go through and it looks really, really cool because I've had a little sneak peek of, of what's coming up in each issue and yeah, it looks fantastic and I'm going to be. When I've got the, the space and the time, I'm going to be going through it. I'm going to be trying to utilize some non existent editing skills and maybe try and video some stuff and pop it in our free Discord server where you can have a look and see what it's all about.

Garry: Sounds very good.

Harry: Tell you what, Matt, you need to get on it because then it can do the housework for you and then give you massages and make you tea. What we've been talking about.

Matt: There's a point in that actually. Yeah, Dalek tat could make a resurgence, couldn't he? And good. Instead of being moody, I'll just, I'll just, you know, tell him that he's got to make my tea and sweep the floor.

Garry: Sweep the floor.

Matt: I'm the merch guy now.

Harry: You tell him.

Garry: Yeah. Oh, bless you, man. So for list listeners benefit who's not not listened to Matt's kind of virtual diary on this. A few months back he kicked off the, the build your own Dalek thing started off well and now it's now needs to pick it back up immediately.

Matt: Dead in the water. It's. There's. Yeah, unfortunately and, and there's not a day goes by that I don't look at those boxes and think I want to spend the entire weekend building this whopping great Dalek. And it, and it looks insane. And what I've built so far is, is amazing. I've got like the, the dome part of, of of the head, the ice stork which is all. It's all connected with a hundred different wires. I just so excited to, to, to get it built. It's just getting that time to do it which I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna take myself away. I'm going to book like a premiere in somewhere, take all of my Dalek stuff and just sit there building it all.

Garry: Wowzers. Yeah, well I'm sure Matt will get on it and he normally posts. We've actually got our own actually have we? I think we've got our own channel in our Discord server just for your Dalek build. So listener, if you're not on the Discord yet, hop in there and you can nag Matt to, to, to get that finished. So yeah, the trip to Wales sounds really cool, dude. Cardiff and, and all that. Stuff. So, yeah, Diochen Val, thank you very much. Harry. Let's talk about Whooverville very quickly because let's do it. I know we've got an article that's going to drop on the website soon. It's going to go into a lot more detail about that stuff, but that should take five to. To talk about that because it's. You and I were talking off air before about conventions in general these days and we were saying that you would be. I think most of us have been to many Doctor Who conventions for years now. So we've met all of the, the, the, the actors in the show pretty much. We've done the photo shoots, we've got the autographs, all that stuff. And we were saying that the. Nowadays it's more about just hanging out with, with us lot. You know, if we go as a big blue box team or meeting people who have listened to the show or read the articles or just people that we've connected with about Doctor Who and seen them in person and it's very cool. And I think you'll agree that Whooverville, that, you know, it's not your first, but it was my first year of doing it. Even though Adam and I have been saying for years that we should go, it was my first one. It really does have that kind of old school convention feel about it where it's kind of smaller than like the larger ones and more personal and more intimate and stuff. So it, an event like that, a convention like that is the perfect opportunity to hang out with people and, and do that stuff. Did you find that this is your second one I think you've been to? Right. So did you find that both times?

Harry: Yeah. So the funny thing with the first one was that I, I went on my own. So I just turned up and, and I was, you know, I think we were saying on the weekend that Derby's not too far from where we're based. So I was surprised. I'd never been before that point. But no, I went last year and I, you know, kind of kept myself to myself, said hello to a few people, but. But no, I still loved it. Whereas this second year, obviously yourself and Maria and our honorary Big Blue Box member Joe, we were at Whooverville and we were there for the weekend. And what struck me this year was kind of the social element around the convention day itself. Like there was stuff going on the night before, stuff going on the night of. And mainly just everyone congregating a nearby hotel bar and just having drinks and waxing lyrical about Doctor Who. And just kind of celebrating this show that we all love so much. And that was. Yeah, that was the main pull of it, to be honest, this year. Like, it was just nice to be around people who were so passionate about Doctor Who especially, you know, in the wake of how the last season went and all the uncertainty that we have around that. It was nice to. That we were, you know, we could actually celebrate all the stuff we love about it. And, you know, the reason why about that kind of stuff is because we love it so much, you know, so, yeah, it was. I loved it. And yeah, don't get me wrong, I still love getting all my autographs and I managed to get everyone's autograph this year, which I was very happy about. And I. I had a pitch with Terry Malloy and a picture with Joe Martin, which was really cool. You know, that all of that stuff is still really fun, but the main thing was just get. Getting to spend time with, well, getting to see people who I've seen around the convention circuit and stuff, but also primarily getting to spend time with you guys and, yeah, just hang out with my mates. That was, you know, that was the highlight for me. It was great. Really good. And props to the Hoovers. Props to Stephen for organizing another belter of a convention. And, you know, long may it continue. They're coming back next year to organize it again. The quad is financially secure, though. It will keep on. Just keep on rolling. And Matt, really hope you're there next year. And Jordan as well, who also, sadly couldn't make it. You guys come along.

Matt: I was just listening to you saying about it there and I saw some pictures of the event and God, I'm so sad that I had to miss it because it looked like such a good event. And, yeah, anytime that you say you meet up with fellow Whovians and people that you've met and talked to and become friends with over this little show that we love so much. And it makes the events, doesn't it? That's part and parcel of. You know, a good event is like a cherry on the top, but it's the connecting with the fellow people that you. That you've met along the way, that's the real diamond there.

Garry: Exactly that, dude. Yeah, it was very cool. And I'll just echo your thoughts on that, Harry. It was, yeah, huge props to Stephen and the other guys who set it all up and arranged it and continue to do it every year. It's. It certainly won't be the last. Hoping to go next year. They've already Announced it like at the end of this one. It was a. Whooverville 17 is already. I think even tickets are on sale now, I believe. Or already for it, I think. Not sure, but it's definitely been announced. I'm not sure. But it was a really cool event nonetheless. It was very cool. And big props to Matthew Waterhouse as well for stepping in at the last moment. We were meant to have more in OBrien, but she sadly. She sadly couldn't make it. So Matthew hopped in with both feet and did a panel and did his autographs and pictures and so on. He was a good laugh as always. So, yeah, it was really good. And Maria was very. Was a great companion to. To us as the team member as well. Like you said, Joe, the honorary member of the Bibliobox team. So we just need the full crew there next year and yeah, maybe we can. Maybe we can get something official happening with those guys and do like a live podcast or something like that. That would be cool.

Harry: Who knows? Who knows? And also it'd be remiss of me not to mention Adam. It'd be great if Adam was there as well, but we know he's often, you know, doing American stuff, you know.

Garry: American stuff in the States. Yeah. Yes.

Harry: So, Adam, we'd love it if you were there as well, if you can make it.

Garry: Yeah, of course, yeah. So who feels very good? And yeah, you mentioned the quad as well. So the quad is this venue in Derby that I think it's mainly a be CFI run kind of. It's got a couple of very small cinemas in there and I believe it's got like an acting school in there. They do AM Dram stuff and other bits. So it's a very cool little venue. Not too big, not too small. Like I said, nice and intimate. But the highlight, the cherry on the cake was the. On the end of the. At the end of the day itself, the. The. The BBC did an exclusive streaming of Terror of the Zygons on BBC on their YouTube channel. Sorry. Which was the new version that's going to come to the new Blu Ray set. So we got to go and have a little screening of that and watch it with some other who fans and stuff, which was unexpected because I don't think anybody knew the BBC were going to do that. I could be wrong, but I don't think they scheduled it and did that. So, yeah, it was a very cool end and obviously many drinks were had and we met up with many people and we shared stories and. And all sorts. So it Was very cool. And yes, one of my New Year's resolutions this year actually was to go to more events, more Doctor Who stuff, and especially things I'd never been to before. So the capital cutaway that we did earlier in the year in London, now Whooverville in Derby. So these are all the things that Adam and I have spoken about for donkey's years on the podcast. We've always said it like, yeah, we should go do Whooverville. We should go out and do Galley, you know, Galley one, Gallifrey one out in the US and we should go and do the capital.

Harry: Oh, Gallifrey1. Wow, that would be a. That's ambitious. I'd love to do it one day. I. I'm, I'm. I think they're finishing it, aren't they?

Garry: After they got three years left, they've got three more.

Harry: Yeah.

Garry: And they're gonna pack it in. So if we're gonna do it guys, we need to, we need to get on it.

Harry: Yeah, we do. Yeah. Saving the old pennies. Yeah.

Garry: Yes. Anyway, that's events. That was Whooverville. Very cool. There'll be a deeper dive into all the little bits that happened and the entertainment that they put on the night before, which is very funny and very good. The impersonations and Harry's put an article together for that and a review and a rundown. We'll put that out.

Harry: The question is, did I win anything in the raffle this year? You'll have to wait for the tune in.

Garry: Find out to read to find out. Yes. Harry's. Harry's attempt number two at trying to win something at the Whooverville derby raffle will be coming up. Alrighty. Let's talk about the McCoy story that you guys have never seen before. I still can't. But anyway. Paradise Towers. Paradise Towers from. Should we do it official like we normally do on the podcast? So Paradise. Actually, let's play the trailer. We've got a trailer for it. Before we dive in, let's remind our ourselves the story and a dear listener. Check this out. This is the one of the fan made trailers which is very cool for Paradise Towers. Hungry? Yes, I am.

Harry: I am the chief Caretaker. And I have no need to tell me.

Garry: I know who you are.

Matt: This is the Great Architect.

Harry: Return to Paradise Towers. Vidy. Welcome. All hail the Great Architect. All hail. All hail the Great Architect. Kill him. Who exactly are you?

Garry: The name is.

Matt: Pix.

Garry: We're the Kangs. Red Kangs. You are of course the best there is.

Harry: No cause for panic.

Garry: No cause for panic.

Matt: No, no Cause for panic.

Harry: No, joke's a joke, but this has.

Garry: Gone on long enough. There's a 327 appendix 3, subsection 9.

Harry: Death waiting for you.

Garry: Hungry?

Harry: The 327 appendix 3 subject is nine deaths of the Great Arctic must take place.

Garry: You feeling better now, dear? Yes, thank you. There's nothing quite like tea and crumbies, is there? That's actually quite true.

Matt: Very true.

Garry: Yeah. Tea and crumpets. Alrighty. Paradise Towers was first broadcast back on the 26th of October 1987. It's a four parter, finished up. Sorry. It was first cast on the 5th of October and then finished at the end of the month on the 26th. It's the second story, I think, in season 24 of McCoy set. It was written by Steven Wyatt, it was directed by Nicholas Mallet and overseen by the script doctor, of course, Andrew Cartmel, star, Sylvester McCoy, Bonnie Langford as Mel Bush, and about a dozen supporting cast members consisting of people like Elizabeth Spriggs, Judy Cornwell, Richard Breyers, Clive Merrison, and an amazing performance from the amazing Howard Cook, who you would know from many big films and TV shows. The guy who played Pecs. I'll let you decide if that's true or not, but yeah. So first of all, question to both of you, and this is a genuine question. I'm not being facetious or sarcastic in any way, just as genuine question, how come you have never seen this story before? So what's. What. What about it has just made you think, I just can't be bothered with it, or just, I'll skip that one or whatever. What. What's made you skip this one?

Harry: Well, the first time I watched this story was, I think late last year and I watched it again for the review. I think the reason why I'd never watched it beforehand is because when I was. When I'd go to HMV and I'd pick out a Doctor Who dvd, I'd often gravitate towards something which had a Dalek on the front or a side man on the front, so. And more often than not it would be a Tom Baker story. So a few of the McCoy stories that didn't have any kind of recognizable Doctor Who elements just kind of slipped under the radar, which is why until very recently I hadn't seen a lot of them.

Garry: Them.

Harry: So I guess that's kind of the reason it's more sort of avant garde and it just kind of slipped under the.

Garry: I see. What about you, Matt?

Matt: Well, I think I. The only real reason I would say would be that I kind of was too excited to go into seventh Doctor and Ace because I, I, I'd seen bits of Ace and I was really intrigued by her character. So, and no offense to, to Mel at all because I think she's great. But I just, I kind of brushed past all of is it season 23 and. And when or 20 is it 24 24. 24 24. And went straight off to, to, to Dragonfire and from there sort of thing. So then I, I don't really have any other explanation other than that and just it didn't really. I looking at the, the premieres for it and I just, I wasn't that sort of excited to dive into it maybe, and it just didn't appeal to me. I, I would say. But yeah, main reason I, I wanted to see the seventh Doctor and Ace and yeah. So I just kind of brushed past it the entire series, to be fair.

Garry: Gotcha. Okay. So no sort of big intentional. I refuse to watch that or I don't want to watch. It was just for one reason or another. It's just you decided to skip it.

Harry: I will say I have a cousin who grew up on Doctor Who in the 1980s. He actually watched Paradise Towers when it came out and he said to me quite a few years back, years before I'd watched the story, don't watch Paradise Towers. Save it until the day you die. Which so even though I wasn't actively avoiding Paradise Towers, I kind of had this thing in the back of my head of like, gonna be crapping it.

Garry: But yeah, it's gonna be crap. Was it crap in your eyes? We'll find out in a moment what your, what score you guys would put on this and if you would ever watch it again. So one thing I will say is that I totally get why people are a bit sort of funny about this era and this season in particular. There are a few stories within McCoy's era that are very. And I think this is kind of what put me off initially when I first got into classic who that really put me off McCoy's era. It's, it was, it was viewing these kind of stories in one dimension on one level. But the, the more I watched it, and that's when I really started to come around to McCoy and his era is things like this. And the Happiness Patrol that are on the surface are these crazy, weird, almost gimmicky strange stories. But the more you watch them, this is my experience anyway, the more I watched it, the more layered I found them. To be. And the. When you dig into those layers a little bit, there's some. Actually, there's some really good, albeit darkness going on in some of these stories. Like some of the bits that happen, like the things I glossed over the first time trying to think of something. So when Mel goes into the apartment with the two old Dorises, and I just thought they were acting weird at first and a bit strange, but then, you know, when you dig into a little bit, you actually realize that they're fattening her up because they want to eat her. Basically. This is cannibalism, you know, but you don't sort of get that dark layer to things until you've see beyond the, you know, the weirdness on that top layer, so to speak. So did you guys find any of that when you were watching this or any story in McCoy's era where, you know, it does feel a little bit. Yeah. Very, very different to all of Doctor Who that came before it. And, you know, a lot of people find it a bit weird. But did you delve deeper beyond that sort of top crust of weirdness?

Matt: I would probably say yes to this one. It does take a little more thought into understanding the story when some stories are. They're almost too in your face and they tell you exactly what you need to know and feel and what to expect. This one. Yeah. If you casually watch it, you're not going to get the same understanding as if you're. If you're really paying attention. These little, little things that are going on in the background, like you say. And it. It does, I think the whole of McCoy's era, especially the couple, because I've still not seen the majority of season 24, but especially those. They are. They're distinctively. I'll put my teeth in. They're distinctively different to the rest of Doctor Who. They've got this whole other feel to them, whether for good or for bad. You know, I'll. I'll let you know my thoughts when we progress into Paradise Towers a bit more. But yeah, they. You really. It needs a couple of watches, I believe, to really appreciate.

Garry: Yes.

Matt: What's going on sort of thing.

Garry: Yes, agreed. It definitely does. Yeah. What about you, Harry?

Harry: But, yeah, the McCoy era, it feels very. Yeah, like Matt said, distinctive. And the show definitely didn't go out on a whimper, I think, towards the end of the 1980s. And I feel like McCoy's character particularly grew and flourished throughout the whole of the tenure. I mean, I've seen all of it now, apart from Battlefield and I'm gonna get on to that because I'm. I'm making my way through season 25, so I'm doing it all in chronological order kind of thing. And I actually just re. Watched the Happiness Patrol and after many years, and that was great and that was very layered and I really enjoyed that. And sort of mentally unpicking it a little bit. Paradise Towers, I mean, I think, I think there's less, there's less of that intelligence. I think that it's definitely like a. I. I hesitate to say the word, but a bit more of a complex mythology to like the world a little bit. There's, there's more of, like, there's more of like a, like a context to that that's been like set up and you know, with like the factions and, and the way that society's kind of remolded itself in this insular, high rise, flat world, principally. It's really interesting, but I'm just gonna come out and say it. It's absolutely blooming ridiculous. Everything about this story. Yeah, Everything from pecs walking around going, I'm the henchest man alive. And it's like you're about the size that I was when I was a teenager, which is a twinkle, right. And Mel going on about the swimming pool.

Matt: Oh, the swimming pool, the swimming pool.

Harry: And then we get to it and it's this horrible, blooming, small, manky old thing that she swims in and then all of a sudden, oh, no, there is a yellow robot behind me, like, as if she couldn't see it, like jump into the water. And just like the fact that the characters are called Bin Liner and Fire Escape and what? I didn't get it. I didn't get it. I. In the sense that I. Yeah. If they were making this and thinking, this is great, this is really good. This is classic Doctor Who. It's like, no, no, it's not, it's not very good. I mean, the only saving grace for me really is Sylvester McCoy, who I think I believe this was the first story that he filmed. Am I right in thinking?

Garry: Yeah, yeah.

Harry: And he, you know, he's obviously still got some, like, some characterization to nail down, but immediately he's. He's magnetic on screen and, you know, really likable and really mysterious, which I really like about the seventh Doctor. And yeah, Barney Langford, bless her, she's not very good. Everything is like overacted and like pantomime and like, I just. Yeah, I mean, when Ace comes along, she's a breath of fresh air. Honestly, because she seems like a real person and a likable person. Mel is just incredibly annoying and, yeah, sorry to say it, she's better in the new series, I'll give her that. But, yeah, I just think it's a shame because I think principally on paper, I think Paradise Tower sounds like it would be a good episode. But execution wise, shall we say, it wasn't it? Yeah, they. Well, they executed it, that's for sure.

Garry: Yeah. And that's. I think that's a common. A common viewpoint with this story. It's. It's definitely bonkers in a lot of ways. It's. Yeah, it's an interesting script because I think what. I think what Stephen. Stephen Wyatt was trying to do was to have this kind of dark undertone, as you mentioned, as you alluded to earlier, Harry, with this, you know, oppressive kind of thing going on in this one location where everybody's either conforming or they're on the run and they're, you know, they're being hunted down and whatnot by the. The legendary cleaners and those robots and stuff and. And that sort of thing. So I try to create this contrast between a kind of dark story but at the same time being bonkers and. And having that contrast there. But it's definitely a common thing. And you mentioned Pecs and stuff. Interesting story about the character of Pecs. Initially, Stephen Wyatt wanted that character to be a very huge muscle bound, like, big meathead kind of character because he wanted that juxtaposition of, like, being powerful and strong, but at the same time being incredibly stupid and just messes things up and, you know, is constantly messing up and all the rest of it. But unbeknownst to them, the casting director had cast Howard Cook, this incredibly lean, you know, almost skinny guy. So they were quite disappointed with that because they'd already given him the job. Basically, they couldn't do anything about at that point, but they kind of. The actor was. In their view, this is Andrew Cartmell saying that Howard Cook turned out to be actually a very good actor in their eyes. So it kind of made up for the disappointment with the casting. But, yeah, pecs is a. He's an interesting one. And there's always that little kind of, you know, is he, Isn't he dead? Kind of thing, because you think he gets blown up at the end when he rugby tackles Richard Briars through the thing with the dynamite at the end and you don't see him die. And then there's a graffiti at the end that says Peck's lives and stuff. So there's always this very cool like, is he alive, is he dead Sort of thing. Unlike something like Adric where we know that he's definitely, you know, blown to it.

Harry: I bet Peck's probably jeffed off at the end. He was probably like, you know, I'm fed up of everyone being really nasty to me and now they all think I'm dead. Perfect. So he just leaves. Leaves the block of flats. Yeah, get out of that toxic situation. Facts.

Garry: And you mentioned it being McCoy's first story. This script was actually written before McCoy was cast as the Doctor. So what happened was partway through when Stephen Wyatt was. Was writing it, he. He was sent a very early audition tape of McCoy for the doctor. And so he based. So he based the script for certainly the writing for the Doctor of kind of McCoy's early audition stuff, but also based it on his, presumably his favorite Dr. Patrick Troughton, that kind of vibe about it. So, yeah, an interesting story. How this one came together in terms of the writing, casting, that kind of thing. And then just a ridiculousness of it all with like, you said, the names and whatnot. It's. Yeah, it's a funny one. So Matt, what did you think to some of the. Because one thing that's very evident in this story, which is similar to previous eras of Doctor Who, but it's just a. It's the same, but different problem if this makes sense. So bear with. So in previous eras of Doctor Who it was always this thing about almost claustrophobic nature to things where it's just running down a lot of very small corridors. The reuse of sets, unless it was like a big location thing, but generally set stuff. Because I, I'm pretty sure that all of this is on set. It was all done in a studio and it's. It's the same kind of problem where it's all done on set fairly cheaply, but it's got a kind of two tone ness to it. It's got this underworld feel to it where everything's kind of bit dingy and grubby and stuff, where all the Kangs are and whatnot. But then you've got this bit where everyone's got their own apartment, it's all decorated lovely and stuff. And then the swimming pool where Mel is. What did you think to how that set design came across? And also the design for the cleaners, the robots, because they often get critique for being cheap and rubbish and stuff. Did that detract from how you felt about the story or did you Think, yeah, this is, this is rubbish.

Matt: Well, I didn't know anything about Paradise Towers at all and I purposefully didn't want to look into it or find a general opinion or anything before watching it. And I watched it for the very first time and it was last week, and go. I loved it.

Garry: You loved it.

Matt: No, I didn't. Oh, man.

Garry: Dirty joke, that one.

Matt: You should see their faces right now. No, I.

Harry: I was about to be.

Garry: Like, what is wrong with you? You had us there for a moment.

Matt: No, I. There's not a light, a lot to love in this story. I don't want to be too harsh on it, but I just, I was a struggle. It was a real struggle. It was. I'm trying to think of another word than crap, but.

Garry: It was.

Matt: If a spade's a spade and, but I don't want it to be because I can, I can see what they were trying to do and like, the, the view of how, you know, it starts being this idyllic paradise, Paradise Towers, but, you know, and then it actually shows how society can quite quickly collapse and, and how feral and, and humans can become and how sort of almost, you know, factioned they are. They become. And, and it's. I, I, I, I like the idea, but I think with, with some, Something like today, if the story was made today, I think it would be much better. But I think a lot like, coming back to the production values, it looked crap. So it, it didn't start. It didn't have the best start anyway, because as soon as you get there, I know it's meant to look like degraded and, and sort of on its knees, but it just, it looked wobbly. It looked the same corridors just slightly redressed. It's. And then suddenly you've got big apartments of Doris and Doris that you've sort of stepped into Emmerdale and then you then back into a corridor. It just didn't. The whole thing was so disjointed and kind of like it belonged on CBee. Beats is the, the thing I was feeling throughout the entire thing was this is so pantomime. It's firstly almost comical, but not in a good way. And then also, like, this doesn't belong. Like. I can't believe this is Doctor Who. This, this. I was just so disappointed. But I, I don't want to get away from the idea that I'm sure that. Is it Steve. Stephen Wyatt.

Garry: Yes. Yep.

Matt: Yeah. That he originally had, because I think with more production values and money put into it and, you know, it would help if he was. If the right casting was, was made. But I think it would have been a lot better in today's climate and money and everything and production values that you can have. It's a story with a big idea, but it just doesn't pull it off. And, and the blooming performances were just dreadful from everybody. I think the own, like you say, the only Saving Grace is McCoy.

Garry: Yeah, it's, I think Harry now.

Matt: Yeah, yeah, it's. He's like, he's, he's had a word with Matt Smith and gone. Right. We've got a bit of a shoddy story in that. What's your advice on carrying this story so people don't switch off the telly? And he's gone, I got you, mate. I got you. All you got to do is this. And he somehow manages to keep you just enough invested that you keep it on the telly. But, God, I watched it before bed and one night and I got through halfway through the second episode and I fell asleep. It was, it was so like, oh, I don't want to be too harsh on it, but there's nothing to like. Yeah, so it's, Yeah, I was just disappointed.

Harry: I do want to say, in its defense, sorry to put you off there again, that it's, it's kind of got, it's, it's kind of got a bit of a cozy feeling about it. And what I mean by that is, like, say if I invited you around my house and, you know, had a spread of, of Jammy Dodgers, fish fingers and custard, and we were like, what should we. And we also had some, you know, some beers, maybe some wine.

Garry: What should we watch, folks?

Harry: What Doctor Who stories should we put on? And we watched Paradise Towers, I think we'd have a pretty good time watching it because there's bits that you can laugh at. Bits. Rona. And little, little tiny bits of like, oh, you know, that has some merit. So even though I think it's pretty terrible, I, I, I don't, I don't think, I don't, I don't watch it and think, no, I wish this didn't exist. Or like, leave it till the day you die kind of thing, I don't think that at all. I think that it's, it's, it's an oddity and it's, and it's interesting because of its badness, if that makes sense. And.

Garry: Yes, what, what?

Harry: Just to touch on the, the realization of it, of, you know, the setting itself that the, the sets that they use reminded me of an old shopping center in Nottingham called the Broad Marsh. Now if any of the listeners know of the Broad Marsh, you'll know that it was the saddest shopping center you could ever go into. It had a wimpies add stains on the carpets. I'm pretty sure at one point I saw some like wires like dangling out of the ceiling one day. And you know, it was, it was, it was a dump, but it was our dump. And that's kind of what I feel like about Paradise Towers. Like it's, it's rubbish, but it's our rubbish, you know.

Garry: Oh, that's very poetic, Harry. I like that.

Harry: Just polishing a turd, aren't I? You know.

Matt: There was, there was one thing that I also thought was quite interesting is how it's sort of dystopian and this is, you know, what, what could happen if society collapses. But then you, you find, I was watching this thinking, hang on, this has got a lot of similarities to what's going on today. And you've, you've got even things that, like the way that certain social media has to say, sort of unalive otherwise, you know, moderation or the, the caretakers or just get rid of it if you don't follow the rules, get out sort of thing. So they were kind of being modern before it was a thing. And, and a lot of this different talk that they're having to say the, the different speech. I was just thinking this is, it's, it's very parallel. There's a lot of today in this which is kind of scary to think about. But I couldn't help, I was just thinking, oh, like this, this seems familiar and it shouldn't do.

Garry: Yeah, I think that's one of the, that's one of the things that in a way it's potentially the sign of good writing if you, if you think about it from that, that level. I think, I think Tolkien is very famous for putting down in words about this stuff. Where he hated the concept of allegory, of intentionally writing things in fiction that could be swapped out one for one for real world stuff. He took more the approach that things, this concept of applicability where you could apply sort of modern day thinking of your own experiences and other things to a story. And I think that's very prevalent in this one where you could apply certain things to current day polity, you know, political stuff and social media stuff and society and whatnot. So it's, I guess from that point of view you could say, yeah, the writing's pretty solid. Not as like a, you know, an enjoyable Doctor Who script in its own right, because there are many, many more stories that are more enjoyable than this from Doctor Who. But, you know, it does have that, that sort of cool sort of undertone to it. Like I mentioned before, and you've both mentioned McCoy being solid in this one. I think that also comes down to the fact that. So Nicholas Mallet, who is the director on this, has said that the, the difference between Sylvester McCoy and Colin Baker was huge in that Colin Baker would never play with the script very much and hardly ever improvised anything. He just read the lines, you know, did it as it was written kind of thing. Whereas McCoy's the opposite. Nicholas Mallet was saying that he, McCoy was made for kind of scripts that weren't locked in, that he could play with them a little bit. So I think that comes through quite a bit, especially where the thing that, for me, that where McCoy shines is his interactions and the way he looks at people and the way he just sniggers at people and the way he reacts to people and the chemistry he has immediately with Mel is very cool. So one of my last questions, both of you, is the TARDIS team in this one then, do you think they work, even though they're not together a great deal throughout the story, they each have their own role to play individually until they meet up again at the end. Do you think this combination of doctor, McCoy's doctor and Melanie Bush, do you think they're a good TARDIS team? You think they work well together or you're not really a fan, Harry?

Harry: Nah, nah, it's. And I think it's mainly just because I find Mel a really irritating character. Again, it's just the way that Bollys Hankford plays it, it's just really like over the top and you know, like, like that, that, that bit, that bit in that trailer you played about the, the tea and crumpets just like, like, like, you know, I don't find her endearing. I think they wanted Mel to be endearing, but she's not. She's just. Just gets on my nerves. Like, whereas you got Ace who comes along, who, who's kind of this down to earth sort of character. And I think that she balances McCoy's like, clown like energy really well and, and also as well, they kind of challenge each other, those two, as like the Doctor sort of treats her a little bit questionably later on in the run, whereas with the Doctor and Male, there's not really, I think it's, I think it's kind of telling that they were separated because there isn't really much that. Where that relationship can sort of go. And if you fast forward to Dragonfire, Mel just kind of says at the end of it, right, I'm off. There's no kind of emotional goodbye, at least, well, that there is one, but it feels very forced kind of thing. And, yeah, so, no, it's not one of my favorite Doctor companion pairings, to be honest. I really like McCoy. Not a huge fan of Mel. If you, you know, really like Mel or, Or indeed you really like Paradise Towers, more power to you. Absolutely. But, yeah, for me, it doesn't, it just doesn't do anything for me.

Garry: Gotcha. Okay. And I think, yeah, again, that's a reasonably common view on it. One thing I will go to bat for with this, with this duo is that I think Matt mentioned this about something else earlier, is that you can, you can totally see what they were trying to do with these characters and the way that the companions have been. Have been written in and how they interact with the Doctor and so on. More importantly, the casting and how they, they work together. I just think overall, they were trying to do something very different at this point with the show because you can't, you can't keep going down the same road of casting a new Doctor, having a companion come on board. You know, the Doctor does crazy things, the companion does normal human things, and that's your balance, that's your, your balancing act, and you move on. So I think they were just trying to mix that up a little bit, which, which I guess was needed, but it just, it just feels very, very different to like, the very much loved teams of things like Tom Baker's Doctor and Sarah Jane and Peter Davison and Tegan, like that relationship and, and all that jazz. So, yeah, very, very different. Matt, what's your, what's your view on. On old Mel, Mel Bush and the Doctor?

Matt: Well, I'm actually, I'm actually going to withhold judgment because I just haven't seen hardly any of pre Russell T. Davis, Mel. And yeah, I really enjoyed mel in series 14 and 15. Is it series 15? When does she turn up?

Garry: Season one?

Matt: Yeah, season one.

Harry: She's in the finale as well. She kind of.

Matt: Season one and season two, she has.

Harry: A, like a thing with the Rani. It's just.

Matt: That's it. Yeah, yeah, I think we'd all rather.

Harry: Forget, but yeah, that. That happened.

Matt: But then even in that, I think her performance is quite strong and, and I really enjoyed her interactions with fifteen and Ruby, and that she didn't really interact at all with Verada Sethu. But anyway, but I really enjoyed seeing Mel there, so I, I, I was intrigued to come back to see what, what she was like as a companion. I think I've only watched sort of two, so. And then this one, they're separated the entire time for, well, for 90% of it anyway. So as a doctor and companion team, I've, I feel that I need to give it a little more of a chance before I make a judgment. But based entirely on this, it felt very disjointed. But I think a lot of, a lot of that, I think, has got to do with the direction and just what they were trying to do with this story. She does come across, Mel kind of comes across in this, like she's a mimic, if you, if you understand what I mean. Like she's, she's almost mimicking the emotions of whoever she's with, whether she's with the old lady, she's all, oh, yes, and oh, I'm so happy and all tea and crumpets. Lovely. And then, you know, when she's with the kang, she's very shouty and she's very, come on, pecs, you can do this, you're a man. And, you know, it's, it's, it's like she hasn't got her, her own sort of personality. She's, yeah, she's just sort of mimicking what's around her, but I'm excited to see what else that she can bring to the table. The only other time I think I've seen what's the, Is it Revenge of the side? No, no, no. Attack of the Cybermen. Is that with Melon Six.

Harry: That's Six and Perry.

Garry: That's Perry, yeah.

Harry: You might be thinking of End of Trial of a Time Lord.

Matt: Oh, it might be.

Harry: Comes in partway through that.

Matt: Yeah, it might be. To be honest, it's been a long time since I've seen them, but I, I remember trying to just get Six to work out all the time on, on like a treadmill or, or something. It's, it's very vague, but that was my only sort of other interaction with, with younger male. So, yeah, I'm excited to see what, what my final opinion on her will be, but not great. Not a great start, but I'll withhold judgment.

Garry: That's fair enough. Yeah.

Matt: And just, just, just as with, with them as a pair, when they were together, I mean, they were okay, but nothing of substance really. So I'd have To watch more.

Garry: Gotcha. That's a fair assessment, dude. And that's a really good observation as well, about how she sort of piggybacks a little bit off of the surrounding actors and characters, and it's very different. So whether that's intentional or not, I'm not sure. But, yeah, it's a really good observation. I hadn't considered that before. Yeah, it's a good one. And then just lastly, the. One of the things I think this story comes up against is. We've mentioned it already, which is kind of the weirdness in the story itself and its production values and things around that. That nature. The other thing that it struggles with to find people liking his story is the casting, for sure. So, like you mentioned at the very beginning, Matt, the. The performances are very. They're unique, let's put it that way. Ropey, from many of the.

Matt: Unique is better.

Garry: Yeah. One of the actors who has had huge criticism laid upon them from this story is Richard Briars for his performance as the chief caretaker throughout the majority of the story and then especially at the end when he gets possessed and he becomes croagnon, you know, and he starts doing a completely different personality and voice and stuff. Very, very weird. I think Richard Briers was quite. If I remember reading an interview or watching a special feature, I can't remember years ago, but pretty sure. Or he was just known for saying that he was thrilled to be cast in Doctor Who and he was under the impression that he was cast in Doctor Who because they were. They wanted him to be a funny comedic kind of thing that he was used to. And then when he was asked to do these more serious kind of character pieces and whatnot, it all kind of fell. Fell out a little bit. In terms of the performances, though, he's definitely one of the weaker ones. Even though he's in it a lot, he's definitely one of the weaker ones, and I totally get that. I agree with that. So from, like the. It's kind of like, visually, it's a little bit on the nose as well. Like the Hitler, Nazi kind of vibe that they've got going on, because they've got like the. The Nazi kind of uniforms as well and, you know, and the. Yep. The square mustache under the nose and. And all this stuff. So visually they try to get this kind of, you know, oppressive dictatorship thing going on. But the way he plays it, it just wipes that out completely. It's like a kid's entertainer has turned up inappropriately dressed to be a kid's entertainer. Like, they expected a clown to, like, juggle some bowling pins and some. Some balloon animals and they get, you know, this. This thing. So, yeah, just lastly, his performance and stuff. I assume you guys also thought that was ridiculous.

Harry: I mean, one of the things about. One of the reasons why this story is terrible, because of the acting and it's the. It's the. It's the choice that everyone seemed to make, or maybe this is how they were directed, I don't know. But just everyone really hams it the hell up. And, like, it has the energy of, like. I used to go to, like, this drama club when I was in secondary school, and it had the end. It had, like, summer showcase kind of energy. Like. Like. Kind of like Bingy kind of children TV kind of acting. It wasn't. Yeah, it was just. They just really hand it up and. Yeah, the. The Great architect. More like the Terrible architect, I gotta be honest. And the. The Kangs as well. Like, just, you know, like. Like every five minutes. It was, like, currently Cutler or Scaredy Cat. Scaredy Cat. It's just. Shut up. It's just. It's so irritating. And, you know, pecs. I mean, you know, you've gotta laugh at pecs, but just. Just. I just don't understand why. Because the story itself is really gritty, really, and, you know, and politically charged, but for some reason, everyone acts like it's CBeebies panto. It's a very strange. It's. It adds to the quirkiness of it, for sure, but it's a very strange choice. I don't. I don't quite know how that ended up happening, because everyone acts like that. It's. It's really. Yeah, it's bizarre. I find it bizarre.

Garry: Yeah. No, I agree. Matt, your thoughts on Richard Breyers and. And that sort of thing.

Matt: Yeah, I'm just. I just nodded my way through this. It's just. It's.

Garry: It.

Matt: It's almost. It's just comical. It's. It. But not in a good way. And it is just. It's. It's almost like embarrassingly so. At certain points you think, oh, my God, like, is this the direction that they actually went with? Or is this, like. Are you just trying to get all of your different acting chops in the one scene that you're in sort of thing? And it just. It screams of. This was made for children. Like, they took this being a family show and made it. No, no, no. This is for CBeebies. Or at the time, like, children's television would have been sort of thing, but it doesn't match with the. With the story that they've got going. But the direction, it's like they've just all come out of Teletubbies and they've gone into Paradise Towers and then they've forgotten that they've switched. You know, it's. It's just. It's just dreadful. And like the Kangs, I think the only saving grace was actually the two old Dorises of. I kind of liked them.

Garry: Oh, Tabby and Tilda.

Matt: They were the best out of a bad bunch.

Harry: They.

Matt: Their performances are no means, you know, Oscar worthy, but they were the best out of a bad bunch and everybody was terrible. But I did get the sense that, you know, something darker was afoot with these two. There was. There was menace in their eyes and they. They portrayed that. They. I got that, you know, from their performance. So props to them. Because with everybody else, it was just a pure. Like, every time I saw them and it was. Or the Kangs or the Caretakers or, you know, even. Even now, and it was like groaning through it sort of thing. And the blooming Kangs, I think they got to be the worst, are just. Every time it was a song and a dance and it was shouting and it was like, oh, my God, just shut up. Just talk at a normal level.

Garry: Yeah.

Matt: So, yeah. Whether it was direction or. Or what, I don't know. But terrible.

Garry: Yep. Okay. Okay. Before we get on to scores, we've been reasonably critical, as I think listeners would expect, with this story in particular. Was there any one thing that you did like, is there one thing that you can take away from the story that you thought actually that element of it was. Was great. Is there anything like that? You can just stick with McCoy's performance if that was your key sort of positive takeaway. But is there anything else that you thought actually that was really cool? If you have to scratch your. Your foreheads more than a few seconds, then probably no.

Matt: So, you know, right at the beginning, there's the title sequence and then the end. No, I was joking.

Harry: I'll check in.

Matt: I like the bit where it says Doctor Who. No, no, like I said, I liked the two older ladies. The. What did you say they were called?

Garry: Tabby and Tilda.

Matt: Tabby and Tilda. And I just thought they were. They were comical, but in a good way. The rest was comical in a bad way. And I liked the idea that you could genuinely see that they were trying to make with, you know, the end with a collapsed society rebuilding and coming together to put Their differences aside and fight the one. Cause I like the ideas. So props to Steven Wyatt. Props for the, for the script and coming up with, with, with a great idea. And I just think if it was made now, it would be a much better story. But it's just limitations of the time and God awful direction just. I completely ruined the story.

Garry: Something positive. Matt, was there anything that you liked?

Matt: The ideas and the two old ladies. Because I thought they were funny.

Harry: Right.

Matt: Cool.

Garry: Harry, anything that you did you like about it?

Harry: Yeah, no, I'd agree with Matt. Conceptually I like the idea behind Paradise Towers. And like I say it's kind of got a bit of a cozy, cheesy, I want to watch something crap and this scratches that itch kind of feel to it, I think. Yeah, I mean, you know, if it was made with today's production values, if the acting was a bit more grounded, then it would be a better story. And I'd even be tempted to pick up the target novel of this one and, and have a read because away, away from all of the, you know, people whining scaredy cat, scaredy cat. I feel like it would probably be a bit more enjoyable and a bit less intolerable. So yeah, just try and keep it positive. So yeah, yeah, I'd agree with Matt totally. The conceptually I like, I like the ideas in there for sure.

Garry: Yeah, gotcha. Stephen Wyatt actually wrote the Target book. So he expands on some of the gaps and some of the other little bits that didn't make it on screen and so on. So apparently it's a good read.

Harry: Oh, wicked.

Matt: I just say one thing that I wonder if you guys agree on or not. It's just popped into my head. But the Girl who Waited is that kind of, that's kind of a bit like Paradise Towers it. But done better sort of this, this, this whole sort of building where there's multiple sort of levels they keep. They can't find each other. But the production values of that is higher. So I think there's not much substance to that story. But it works out better for the, for the production values of the time. You've got the cheesy robots. It's kind of just popped into my head. I wondered if anybody else thought of, thought of that.

Harry: You know, I think it's weirdly now that you mention it, it's the Girl who Waited and also the, the episode immediately following the God complex, which both kind of remind me a little bit of Paradise Towers. It's. I know the God complex is meant to be like A hotel. But it's kind of got like the. A similar sort of. It's all in one setting and there's some ridiculous things going on kind of vibe. But the God complex is really to really grounded kind of. It takes itself really seriously from what I remember. And it's actually. It's actually a little bit freaky, that one. So. Yeah, yeah, there was something in the water in the. Right. That one. I bet they were watching Paradise Towers with Jammy Dodgers and fish fingers and custard. Wouldn't surprise you.

Garry: A few beers.

Harry: Yeah, yeah.

Matt: Or many bottles of wine.

Harry: Yeah, well, knowing Moffat's writers room, it probably would be definitely.

Garry: Yeah. Red wine. Yeah. Okay. Couple of bits of quick trivia for you which I found really interesting. In the Kang's lair there was loads of set dressing and so on. Some of the barrels that were in the set were from the Alien movies. They had the Weyland Yutuni logo on the side of the barrels where they tried to paint over them, but the paint had faded a bit and you can see the logo.

Harry: And how did they get older then?

Garry: So it was just. Just props that were passed around from production studios around the 80s and. Yeah. Got reused and whatnot. Yeah.

Matt: I think some stuff has turned up in Star wars as well, isn't it? It must have been like a shared production thing.

Garry: Yeah, it's just sort of prop makers, as they go from different studio houses and productions, you know, they bring bits with them and. And all that stuff. Yes, it's pretty cool. And yeah. And Howard Cook, who plays Pecs, received a nomination for best actor in Doctor Who. By the. Back in the day when you had the official Dr. Who fan club they nominated, he got. He didn't win, but he got nominated for best actor in Doctor Who. So take from that what you will.

Harry: Best actor ever in Doctor Who or best as in best actor, like of all of Doctor Who or best series.

Matt: Wow.

Garry: Best of the. I'm guessing best of the series. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Matt: Okay.

Garry: And that was a good, good, good sort of crystal ball reading for. For him because he jacked the old acting game in at the end of the 80s and became an agent for other actors. So. And has never been on screen since. I can't remember. It was a few years after this. He did something. The only other time he's been on screen is when he came back in in 2010 for the DVD release where he was interviewed about playing Pecs in the old Paradise Towers. So. Okay. To finish up them, we could go into lots more Detail, by the way, on this story. I think so. I think you've just got the headlines listener on. On some of this stuff. But what would you guys score it then out of 10?

Matt: A three. A three?

Harry: Yeah, maybe if I'm being generous. Yeah, maybe a three.

Garry: Okay.

Harry: Yeah, yeah.

Matt: No, I can't be that generous. I'd go a 1.5. And the 1.5 is purely for the old ladies. Half a point and McCoy for the point.

Garry: 1.5. Yeah.

Matt: I think that's the lowest I've ever scored anything, actually. But this was just. I couldn't watch it again. I think I'll read the target because I think it deserves another read through or another go through, but I can't watch it again.

Garry: Crikey. Okay, so Adam and I reviewed this on the podcast many, many moons ago, back in 2015 for episode 26 of the podcast. If listener, if you want to go back and hear, Adam and I dive into the story a bit more. But I ultimately gave it a five and Adam gave it a six. So that was our thoughts on that at the time. But fascinating to hear what you guys thought of this as you've just really recently watched it. This is not one of your sort of I'm bored. I want to watch some classic who reach fors. This is a Garry's forced us to watch this for the roundtable kind of job. So not too bad. However, Harry, you're partway through a rewatch, right? So what's your next one for McCoy?

Harry: Next up is Silver Nemesis.

Garry: Silver Nemesis. Oh, God. Matt, have you got any plans now to watch any more of the McCoy era, or has this put you off now?

Matt: No, I'm going to dive into watching some more with Mel, I think, because I want to see how that all fares because I think. Interesting character.

Garry: Yeah.

Harry: You're gonna love Delta and the Bannerman. I. I already know you're gonna blooming love it.

Garry: Do you know what? I know Harry's being semi sarcastic here, but I genuinely think, Matt, you're gonna like that story.

Matt: I really hope so. I really, I want to love more of especially this series because. Yeah, this, this, it can only go up from here.

Harry: Wow.

Garry: So a three from Harry and a 1.5. Okay. Excuse me. So I think on that chirpy happy high score note, we're going to end there for the September Round table. Thank you, thank you. Thank you very much for coming back to listen to another episode of the Big Blue Box Roundtable. That was the September Roundtable. We won't leave it so long. This time we'll get back into the rhythm of it. We'll be back next month to either talk about plenty of documents, Doctor Who news, anything that's coming up on the radar, any of that stuff, or we shall do the same thing as this month, where we'll pick a story that these guys haven't seen before or they haven't seen as much, or one that they've watched many, many moons ago, but their opinion may have changed if they've only watched it the once, many years ago. So we'll do something like that. So let us know what type of episode you want us to do. Hit us up on the socials, search for the Big Blue Box podcast or head over to the website Big Rebox podcast cast co.uk There are links there to the socials and give us a like and a follow while you're there. So you can chat with us not just about this, but other stuff to do with Doctor Who. And while you're on the website, you can obviously read the articles and reviews. That's what these guys are here for, to give you all the cool rundowns and reviews on all the big finish, newer Doctor Who, old Doctor Who events, everything like that. So go and check that out. Harry. Matt's left us, by the way. I think his phone's died. But Harry, amazing to chat with you as well about all things Doctor Who and of course Paradise Towers. So thank you very much, my friend.

Harry: Thank you, Garry. It's good to be back again. The old round triangular table. Looking forward to the next one indeed.

Garry: So I will say a goodbye and everybody from Matt, his phone has died. But we will be back with Matt on the next roundtable.

Harry: He just got fed up of talking about Paradise Towers, that's the thing, probably.

Garry: So until next time. We'll see you then. So take care of yourselves and remember.